Weekend Guest Post: Kenny, Why Not (Insert Player/Formation Here)? A Look at the King’s System and Squad

Soccer is my most favorite sport. Kenny and his team seem to establish teams to buy players in the summer transfer market has filled the void in the previous season.

Antarctica Trips

terrible plug.  Had to laugh.

Like the words and sentences, @PDubz18:disqus ... three strips of crispy Sunday bacon for you. 

You hit on a very good point with breaking down the variations Kenny has at his disposal. Especially with Glenny Kravitz, Martin "Clark Kent" Kelly and the back line, we have a solid (but not perfect) collection of defenders who can match-up, cause problems, adapt. Do we need another CB in January?

Much of the same can be said with our midfield options, with varying and divisive opinions on who brings the thunder and who blows goats. Everyone seems to agree that a RM that brings the HappyFeet-PacePicanteSauce-ArrogantBasterds would not go amiss. And perhaps a top-of-the-shelf CDM. But watching M.Kelly the last few months and considering the P.Jones experience -- what about Kelly as a CM?

And as much as I would enjoy a 24HourKennyDaglishExplainsAll twitter feed, the truth I don't know what his plan is with sticking with Adam (or a formation that does not suit Adam) and (though not correlated to the previous statement) marginalizing 3 Knights who helped secure his throne last spring. Jay, I understand, sort of. Are Kuyt and Maxi being marginalized because they are not Kenny's players? Or are they being saved (and perhaps motivated to prove) for the long post-January haul? 

Non-sequitur: Xabi/Cesc on record saying that playing in England made them stronger. How about sending the Jonjo/Sterling studs to play in Spain for a bit? I may be wrong, but I'd like to think they'd benefit a lot more playing in a more technical league than say, League 2 or the Championship. Anyway, loaning players to Spanish clubs? Discuss. Or eat bacon.

You're getting better with the nicknaming, NTX. Glenny Kravitz? You funking kidding me?...That's outrageous!

isnt the knock on british players generally that the way the academies are set up they dont traditionally get, how should i say, a top notch education...?  jonjo, for example, doesn't really come across as a scrabble or chess officionado...  point being, with that backdrop, i think itd be a brilliant idea to send some youngsters out on the continent for experience, stretch them a bit linguistically/culturally as well as in a footballing sense. 

I do not think we need a new CB; Comolli said over the summer that they were reinforcing with youngsters in mind. I think with Coates as a pseudo-youngster, and Kelly and Robinson waiting in the wings, we do not need to supplement our CB personnel.

As for midfield additions, I think it all depends on who gets fed up with not being able to play. I assume that Maxi would be much more likely to leave than Kuyt, which means that we will need to find another winger.

The Martin Kelly point is a very good one; the thinking behind that is that if he can deputize at other positions, why not? We saw Fabio Aurelio used as a defensive midfielder last year in the 3-man defense at Stoke (maybe it was Chelsea?), and he did very well. Phil Jones has been a solid player for ManUre this year, and he was even used as a man-marking CDM against Spain.

However, I think that putting Martin Kelly in a CM role would be misusing his talents. The reason Phil Jones is used in midfield is because he is comfortable on the ball (which Kelly is too), but he is much less mobile than Kelly. Chris Smalling is the other talented young English center back for the future, and he has been deployed almost exclusively as a right-back instead of a center mid. He and Kelly are both speedy and athletic enough that they can put in a full 90 running up and down a flank. Phil Jones, however, has his moments going forward, but for the most part he stays back and reads the game, letting it come to him. Another fact: Jones is pretty short for a center back, he is about 5'11", whereas Kelly and Smalling are 6'3" and 6'4", respectively.

Nice one Peter. Always have my hat off to a fellow guest-poster. Nerve-wracking shit trying to keep the Ed/Noel axis of excellence spinning. So, (raheem) sterling work by you fella.  

As to your observations, well, god/buddha/ja/guinness bless your generally up-beat take on The King's travails thus far. LFC '11/12, as you have illustrated, is a work-in-progress...and for every critic who sees only darkness there are the more enlightened and hopeful Sons Of Shankly who see hope and potential in what Kenny is trying to do at Anfield. So to all Redmen (gloomy or hopeful) YNWA and finally, JFT96.

I loved how the formation of the 3 man defense worked last year with Chelsea and Stoke, completely dominating the midfield and letting us hold possession. But why have those been the only times? I know that it cant be over used, seeing as opponents would adjust to it but against tough opponents I'd think its something that should be used more. those were the first two times under Kenny that its been used and it showed wonderfully. If it worked then why not give it another whirl . Yes personnel has changed but not to where it would be totally ineffective. I say if it tears apart chelski we use it again against tots, manure, the city. Yes we haven't played all of them twice since, but still. Someone how with whoever plays LB and RB Henderson and Downing could be switched effectively as well, but again, another story.

it did work well, i think the generall consensus is its too easy to bust in the epl over the long term.  nearly every team is set up to hit you on the break and the 352 is pretty susceptible to counterattacks.

Yeah, perfect example of that being Germany's game using 3 at the back against Ukraine where they were 3-1 down at one point, alot due to counterattacks that they are usually so reknowned for.

Great post, I think this crystallizes why  i have supreme faith in KK and staff. They let players play to their strengths instead of trying to fit square pegs in round holes. The fact that he adjusted formations to fit around quality players bodes well for the club, as it means more varying attacking options and a wide range of transfer targets for the club.

Title updated from my lame effort to Peter's suggestion. I'm leaving now. Don't try to find me.

you had me knodding my head, fellah, good job!  try not to stretch yourself so much on the title creativity, though. you may pull a groin dong if your not careful... ;)

Yeah the title was one thing I meant to go back and change after I finished, apparently I forgot that :P

Just tweeted you back...if you want to make a change to the title, let me know. My effort was abysmal.

Bleh, blame me for the title, it's embarrassing. 

im like how del bosque's gonna be if this score doesnt change - not mad, just *sigh* disappointed... nothing a bucket of Colonel an a good night's rest can't put behind us.

Nice post, but why do you make excuses at the end? Kenny has Clarke and Keen to keep him up to date, and Kenny is already the best motivator possible. That's one of his big strengths.

"Dalglish tends to have a similar midfield line in every game he has overseen. His central midfield is always a pair of midfielders who act as a double-pivot."

Dalglish has also used a 3-man CM to great effect -- at Chelsea and Stoke last season, vs ManU this season. It's worked very well for us/him because it suits our personnel, i.e. slow midfielders. Going with a 2-man middle of Lucas/Adam was a disaster at Tottenham, and it could be again the next 2 weeks if Kenny is naive enough to try it again. He wised up against Manu, but we'll see soon if he truly learned his lesson. If being dominated by Swansea for large stretches doesn't clue him in, his irrational man-love for Adam is truly boundless (and hopeless).

"Spearing does not have the range of passing that is required to partner Lucas in the double pivot."
Huh? Wee Jay has plenty of passing range. Turn on the vid for our first goal vs Stoke a few weeks back for an example. He also moves the ball side to side very tidily. Also, who cares? Much more important than passing range is the hard work of disrupting play, tackling, and getting all the way to the sideline and endline to help out the fullback when required. Lucas is not fast enough to do it all on his own and splitting the job in two is what works.

Really, it's fine to have an idea about the most successful two-pivot, destroyer-creator tandems in history, but we don't have world-class CL-final caliber players anymore. A minimum requirement is one player who is dynamic, athletic, quick. Mascherano and Sissoko were like this, Alonso was not (nor was Poulsen). Neither are Lucas and Adam. You need at least one out there, and right now Spearing's all we've got.

"Carroll has turned in a few great performances in the past few weeks (if we forget about that miss against Swansea). Their partnership is just starting to click, and I imagine that once they start playing well together they will be a force with which to be reckoned."

Imagination's a wonderful thing. I imagine once I start earning well (just a few million quid more) I'll partner up with a supermodel, too...

Look, Carroll has been ok, not great. Personally, (outside of a video game) I think there is very little potential for a Suarez-Carroll partnership, as Carroll has near-zero ability to control the ball cleverly, exchange one-twos, make intelligent runs, or pass with any accuracy in the open field. What we have seen Carroll do well is holding up a run at the right time (goal at Everton) and knocking the ball down (vs Swansea). The improvement, if it comes, will be when Carroll gets some kind of understanding going with the midfielders and crossing FBs in terms of his positioning. I think at some point he will have to stop hanging out behind the far post defender to be more effective, and start darting across his man more.

If each one scoring independently while the other is on the field is a "partnership", then sure.

Carroll can be useful in the open field as we saw with his goal against WBA (assisted by Suarez) and a few pinpoint services against Evernone. He does make intelligent use of space every so often and the more he gets involved, the more space he creates for Suarez  by dragging one or two defenders to account for his aerial ability. And remember that disallowed goal vs. Sunderland? Some tidy touches there. 

***

But, the larger point is there is no Carroll-Suarez partnership because "partnerships" are going the way of the dodo and David Bentley's career. They are a crutch of the English media's "twas always thus, and always thus will be" tactical righteousness. The lines between a position and the role someone plays have been blurred to the point absurd semantics. Ball playing vs 'traditional English' CBs, fullbacks are now "full field backs", holding midfielders, false #9s, tresquartistas, CAMs, poacher, fox-in-the-box, etc. Numerical formations give way to average starting position and chalkboards (with neither have chalk or boards, mind.)

Are Carroll and Suarez partners? No. Are they integral parts of Liverpool's best attacking set-up? Maybe. Do they bring a variety of skills, assets, and sources of chaos to those who face them? Yes. Undoubtedly. 

You can't isolate Suarez and Carroll's effectiveness as a duo when so many other factors determine their collective 'impact' -- whether or not Enrique/Downing can get up the left-side, wither or not Charlie decided to bring his Hollywood that day, Henderson/Kuyt's instincts to be in the right place and the right time, and if Gerrard can deal with the microbes and get back on the field. It's all fluid, man. And its messing with my Zen thing.

Glad I have plenty of bacon.

/agree about the bacon

Another way of putting this is to look at the pass Suarez provided for Carroll against WBA and ask yourself if Carroll could have made that pass if the roles were reversed. 20+ yards, in stride, one touch. I'm saying no.

Don't forget, bacon has to go to 72 degrees to deal with those microbes... ya listening Stevie?  Heat up that ankle!

Body. Imagination IS a wonderful thing. Twenty million quid is not likely to let you do the supermodel thingy. Just guessing here. So don't get yer hopes up.

Nice post Peter. Enjoyed the article and your perspective on things. Noel and Ed set the bar and it is not easy to enter the mosh pit with confidence. But you did. Well done!

It's very intersting to me that the general pre-season consensus was that we needed additons in the defense but were well stocked in midfield. Now the feeling seems to be that we need help in the midfield. The addition of three average priced midfielders doesn't seem to have done the trick for now. (Stewie - 65K/Wk; Hendo - 65K/Wk; Adam - 50K/Wk) Forget the transfer fees, the salaries are what really signifies quality on the pitch. We need Stevie (125K/Wk) and maybe 1 more quality double pivot mid.

Charlie nominally begins the game in the withdrawn double pivot role. His average position maps place him around or past the midfiled center circle. As Nate has observed, the chances created is: Adam 26. Suarez 20, Enrique 20, Downing 17 and Lucas 10. Charlies position at the top of that list does not exactly thrill me. Would assume about 13 chances are created from open play and 13 from set pieces. 13 from open play is a little better than Lucas, which is not great from a creative(?) midfielder. And 13 chances created in 11 games from taking most of the set pieces is not great, either. I can't imagine that many other teams have created less than 13 chances from set plays in 11 games. Anyone could have done that. Hendo and Stewie can take the corners and Hendo, Stevie or Luis (close to goal) can take the direct free kicks. It may well be that Kenny's Scottish man love for Charlie is boundless. January's window can't come soon enough for me.

Also agree that wee Jay has plenty of passing range. Not as great as Adam, but still pretty damn good. The first goal at Stoke in the Carling Cup is exactly a good representation of Spearo's passing range. He settles the ball from Kelly and effortlessly plays a 40 yard cross field pass to Luis to bring him into the play. Easy, implicit,  no thinking, effortless 40 yard pass to the open Luis. This pass is not an aberration of his passing ability. We need one midfielder in the double pivot who is dynamic, athletic, quick, has quick feet, quick thinking, high tempo passing and can also tackle when needed. Not just stand off to avoid a tackle. As you observe, more important than the passing range, is the additional destroyer role - tackling, destroying, challenging - side line to end line.

I'm thinking we will see much more from big Andy. He does need to develop a better understanding with Stewie and be able to coordinate his movement and Stewie's crosses so that the ball and Carroll both arrive in the box simultaneously at the same point. The team also needs to coordinate Carroll's knockdowns of lofted balls so that their is a forward or mid available for that knockdown. I'm still looking forward to that partnership and so is Luis as he often mentions.

I agree that Kenny has used a 3-man midfield, but it has been more of a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 than a pure 4-3-3 (like the one that AVB runs at Chelsea). In the few trios we did see, they tended to take turns going forward rather than moving forward as a unit and pushing up high. Chelsea has been running into problems with the high back line due to CB's that are very slow on the turn.

With respect to Spearing, it is hard to argue that he has a larger passing range than Adam. Adam has the most chances created on the team, and this is from the withdrawn double pivot role. Spearing is a very resilient player who is confident on the ball, and he knows that he does not have the same ability for long balls that Adam does. I agree that Spearing can be more effective in some situations due to his ability to keep the tempo high and move the ball, but Dalglish has always favored the more cultured passing of Adam. I like the idea of putting Hendo with Lucas in the middle and giving some time for Maxi, but the first order of business in building this squad is to get the players to gel.

Saying that Carroll has "no potential" at all in a pass and move system is selling him short. He is 22, he has a lot of career in front of him to improve his passing. He is finally getting fitness back; he's lost a lot of weight and worked his ass off.

I think that Adam's passing range, though impressive hardly qualifies his passing as cultured. As a deep lying playmaker, I'm pretty sure the basic qualifier of passing involves not simply ability but how to use that ability. There is no point being able to play a 40 yard pass if you don't know when to play it. The role is one that requires intelligence, and an understanding of the pass and move game, something which Adam doesn't really seem to demonstrate IMHO. Anyway the double pivot has does not always have to be seen as the creator/destroyer partnership as used by Rafa in 08/09, rather the double pivot can be seen in the brazilian mould, two volantes, or defensive midfielders with one midfielder given slightly more responsiblities to pass it to the attack. Many sides also field two defensive midfielders as a double pivot, such as Holland, where Nigel De Jong and Van Bommel line up as part of the double pivot, neither of which are particularly key players. Spearing doesn't have to be very creative to play in the double pivot and since he offers pretty tidy passing, honestly why not?   

I guess cultured can mean a few different things depending on your view of it :P

With respect to the double-pivot personnel: With two athletic, defensive central midfielders, you need to have a world class trequartista in the hole behind the forwards. Holland had this in Wesley Sneijder, who really showed his class at the world cup. Otherwise you have 3 midfielders who are not especially comfortable on the ball and are not good at transition play. The result can be a very negative team, with 3 midfielders who are great at winning the ball, but have to play on the counter due to lack of third-quarter support. Brazilian teams traditionally have run the 4-4-2 diamond, with some teams using the 4-2-3-1 in recent times. Great trequartistas have been the cornerstone of Brazilian footballing tradition (Rivaldo and Kaka to name a few). That sort of player is required to be able to have a defensive double pivot.

When Spearing is on the field, his passes to the wingers/Suarez might be spot on at all times, but they are not the most creative passes in the world. Your brilliant attacking players are then on the ball far away from goal. Against lower opposition this strategy works brilliantly, which is why I think Adam should be taught to execute those sorts of passes more often than not. But defensively tight teams will never let us play through the middle. That is when Adam's hollywood balls in the channel will be invaluable. Once (if?) Andy Carroll starts finishing some of the crosses, wing play will become very deadly.

Regarding the world class trequartista in Wesley Sneijder, I believe we also have a certain world class attacking midfielder (not entirely the same I know) in the form of Steven Gerrard, who is deadly in his own right, Charlie Adam himself played ahead of two defensive midfielders in his time against blackpool who did all the ball winning for him.  

I think that Suarez can also offer a lot as a support striker and will benefit from playing in the hole. Dropping deep isn't exactly something he is uncomfortable doing and in that sense, he too could play the role ahead of spearing and lucas. 

That being said I'm pretty sure Spearing and Lucas do offer more creativity than Van Bommel and De Jong, both not exactly being out and out destroyers. 

Adam's not world class, but you're now describing the role he's good at. Same with Henderson. The problem is the word "forwards", which should be singular. We only need one striker to play 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1, and his name is Luis Suarez. This is why playing Carroll screws up our entire side: we don't have the midfield personnel to play 4-4-2. Even Swansea can run right through us.

We actually are loaded at that central attacking midfielder position: Adam, Henderson, and Gerrard. They all play the same game, of bursting forward from the space between the opposition's lines.

Hey, I said "very little potential", not "no potential!! :)) Anything's possible. I just don't see anything in Carroll's play or history that suggests it -- happy to be proven wrong, of course. But we are talking about a very poor player technically, perhaps the worst ball control and passing of any striker to have started in the league this year. Ouch, that hurts just to write it!

The key is the left peg and that huge head...get the ball onto those and goals will come because he's got incredible power. Forget this wishful thinking about him becoming a cultured player.And I would never suggest Spearing has a larger passing range than Adam. I just don't care because Adam is simply not suited to that 2-man spot. I just don't think Kenny cares about clean sheets like some of us do. He would rather outscore the opponent, bless his irrational striker's heart.

Really, if Kenny would just realize he can't play all his projects at once, this whole new team gelling thing would go a lot quicker, in my opinion. Adam-Henderson-Lucas in the middle with Carroll on the bench or Lucas-Spearing with Carroll on the pitch. It's simple, really.

It's not a criticism of your view, just an alternative opinion, but I think we've gotten too caught up with the concept of a double pivot containing 1. total destroyer and 2. an amazing passer of the ball. Why can't we have a Lucas who recycles the ball well and a {insert more attacking player with a simple passing ethos}? Lucas and Meireles played very well together, but weren't the classic Destroyer/Passer combo....

We were very spoilt with Alonso's skillset and Rafa used it to devastating effect, however it did need a player with Mascherano's skillset to make it work. Secondly, they also needed the drive and dynamism of Stevie G to make it a world class trio, but you only have to look back at games when 1 of them was missing, how the team dynamic looked out of kilter.

i dont get why you wouldn't want andy in the center of the front 3 in the 433 with the mids u mention behind... luis an downing/kuyt constantly buzzing around the big man doesnt do anything for you?

Not really. In my view, at this point Carroll is our 4th striker and not a regular starter. If we play 2 strikers, depending on the opposition the 2nd one should most often be Kuyt or Bellamy -- proven players at a higher level than Carroll.

I like Carroll to start as a 2nd striker only occasionally while he continues to try to learn how to play at a high level. He might work in situations where we need a big body for holdup play, for example in the 3-5-2 away to Chelsea, or when we expect to concede a lot of corners and need him for defensive headers.

can't follow you down this one, ptb.

very little potential for the suarez-carroll partnership?  spearing with more than a lucas/masch passing range (the play you mention was a peach, but adam is alonso-esque at times...)?  c'mon now...

i can tell ur from the capello school of double cdms or nothing, so that's fine, different strokes.  but with spearo in along with lucas, no steven gerrard, an fledgling hendo, a bench warming kuyt, and a decent downing - where is your offense coming from in that midfield if not from adam?  you cant just have no creativity there.  well, actually u can. but then ur stoke, and who wants that?  i get what ur saying, but id still say its totally up in the air whether adam's defensive deficiencies outweigh his offensive contributions.  we put away some goals from some of those set pieces or passes of his and we put away norwich and swansea and arent even talking about spearo.  just sayin.

one question that's been nagging me is about the coaching staff kenny has surrounded himself with in the past.  is kenny the good guy in the coaching staff or is he the hard ass or can he do both when its needed? the reason i ask is steve clarke, who by all accounts is an excellent innovator and great addition to our staff, has had two very divergent recent experiences before liverpool where i think his impact on the squad's temperament could possibly be cause for long term concern. 

first he was extremely successful paired with jose - the hard ass, the special one who's best attribute is knowing exactly when to be heavy handed and when to be the chill coach. it allowed clarke to just do his mad scientist shit at practice and be cool with the players. secondly the west ham experience with zola. GZ is known for always being the buddy buddy, benevolent, optimistic, chill coach, not rly a manager in the vein of pep, fergie, jose.  the west ham thing started great, got rave reviews about the practices they were running, and the team was hot out the gates. but ultimately, having never developed that cold-hearted, eye of the tiger thing that any successful locker room needs to have, it ended in an extended run of poor form and zola's head. 

should we be questioning how clarke's impact with liverpool will end up? is it gonna be west ham or chelsea? neither? with stevie, reina, kuyt an carra does it matter?

I'm not from any school. I just believe in playing formations that make sense for the personnel we've got, and for the personnel we're up against. And it's very rare you can successfully play with just two slow-footed CMs in there. (We can't play Bolton every week.) 

One is fine -- it was ok to have Alonso give up all those free kicks near our box (and good lord, did he give away a lot of them) because he was arguably the best passing midfielder in the world and had Mascherano next to him. But Adam is even slower than Alonso and lower quality. Lucas is also slow, but at least he's learned to tackle and win the ball.

You may have noticed Nasri carrying the ball 50+ yards untouched earlier this year against us. Swansea's midfielders did the same thing at times, skipping down the center of the park freely because neither Lucas nor Adam has any burst, acceleration, or make-up speed. When someone gets a step on either of them, they're gone.

I'd say that Alonso was a lot more intelligent in the defensive aspect of the game was he not? Though he did give away a lot of free kicks, he did work harder and could read the game a lot better than Adam and made key interceptions at times instead of just being blindly passed around. I'd believe that a Masch - Adam partnership would see us overrun as well. 

Yep - and I'm sure if you checked out his Opta stats, there would be a high level of tackles comparative to how many you would expect from a more creative player.

i guess... doesnt lucas make up for that for the most part with his superior reading of the game, though?

I'd say, most of the time. Regardless, if one needs examples of how effective Spearing and Lucas are together, one needs only to look at the glut of dominance at the end of last season. Though, as I've mentioned before, that relied heavily on athletic and creative retention from Meireles in front of them, which I think Henderson and probably Gerrard could do.

We've not seen Lucas and Adam (regardless of surrounding players) consistently hold down the midfield together. We have seen Lucas and Spearing do it, which is why the notion is so consistently brought up.

Good assessment, would like to see henderson and lucas in the middle and give maxi/bellers a shout out wide, we just seem more dangerous with them linking play and attacking

I've been thinking about Henderson-Lucas in the middle myself. Based on what Henderson did and Sunderland, and once or twice earlier in the season when he drifted inside he appears to be able to thread some pretty nice through balls which Suarez in particular would feed off. This would offer something different to Adam who appears to favour the aerial approach.