Man Mismanagement

By: Noel | January 16th, 2012

In the wake of Saturday’s match against Stoke, much was made of the draw representing a complete tactical failure by Kenny Dalglish and Steve Clarke. The key failure in that larger breakdown was meant to be the deployment of three centre backs in a formation nearly identical to the one which had defeated Stoke at Anfield a year earlier, as in the eyes of many those three centre backs represented an overly defensive approach when facing a club with so little attacking intent. It wasn’t, however, a failure of tactics. If anything, it was a failure of personnel.

That reality may not leave Dalglish blameless, but it does go some way to discrediting those who would embarrass themselves by calling for his head using such a contrived and faulty justification, one that suggests that the person making the argument has little understanding of football. Superficially, the suggestion that three centre backs was inherently too defensive has a similar ring to the similarly faulty—but all too common—suggestion that sides deploying one striker are inherently less attacking than those that deploy two. In both cases, the labels given to where players set up is convenient shorthand, but it hardly tells the whole story.

After all, Stoke often start their matches with Jonathan Walters alongside Peter Crouch in attack, and nobody is ever likely to mistake them for an attacking club. Meanwhile there are countless examples of sides deploying a lone striker who through possession allow time for four or even five players from midfield and the fullback positions to flood into the box in support—including the Liverpool side that ended last season on a high note, tearing apart opponents as diverse as Fulham, Birmingham, and Manchester City.

Yet hardly a weekend goes by without some commentator suggesting that a side with one true striker could be made more offensive if they simply were to shuttle on a second. It is, in short, an outdated outlook, and almost laughably so when one considers how the best—and often most attacking—club and national sides set up.

*

Similarly, starting three at the back doesn’t have to be more defensive than any other common formation. In particular, against Stoke three at the back is a perfectly reasonable way to defend their height, their aerial threat, and tendency to hoof—or throw—it into the box. Especially given that neither Lucas Leiva nor Jay Spearing was available to Kenny Dalglish on Saturday.

The reality is that almost all sides deploy three or four players almost entirely concerned with defence. Sometimes that means two centre backs and two fullbacks; more often these days it means two centre backs and two holding midfielders. Sometimes there’s a single holding midfielder and one fullback who’s noticeably more defensively minded than the other, leading to an imbalanced formation. In any case, while there is certainly flexibility in how a manager decides to combine the talent he has on hand, the vast majority of the time the final number of primarily defensive players falls within that same range.

Given Liverpool’s lack of options in midfield and the particular threat posed by Stoke, three centre backs and Jose Enrique filling a role not too far from what he would have in a four-man backline was simply an unusual route to reach a similar answer. It wasn’t inherently defensive, not with Charlie Adam and Steven Gerrard sitting in midfield in front of the trio and almost entirely absolved of any defensive duties.

The problem then was execution, not tactics. The problem was that the players on the pitch tasked with providing the cutting edge didn’t do so. Blaming the three centre backs or Dalglish for deploying them is akin to those who would blame Lucas for all the club’s failings in past years when in reality there were six or seven other players on the pitch responsible for providing the attacking impetus who simply weren’t doing enough. With four midfielders largely free to directly support Dirk Kuyt while Glen Johnson and, increasingly as the match progressed, Jose Enrique spent almost all of their time in Stoke’s half, there should have been enough firepower on the pitch to at least cause Stoke more of a problem than they did.

Especially when one considers that Liverpool had 69% of the possession, giving those midfielder plenty of time to get forward, it is almost inconceivable that Kuyt often cut a largely isolated figure in and around the Stoke penalty area. That by the second half Liverpool had three players on the pitch primarily concerned with defence wasn’t the problem. The problem was that the four men in midfield offered almost nothing in attack.

*

If one wants to lay the blame for yesterday’s dire draw at Kenny Dalglish’s feet, the way to do so is not to blame the tactics—which, given personnel limitations and Stoke’s preferred method of attack were entirely sensible. No, if there is blame to be attached to Kenny Dalglish it is for the squad’s failure to execute, which is a failing that can be traced back to last summer’s transfer window, last January’s panic-buy of a striker who is still struggling to fit in, and some questionable early-season man-management.

Last season when Dalglish deployed three at the back against Stoke, Steven Gerrard and Raul Meireles played in direct support of Kuyt. And on that day, the winning margin was provided by Meireles from a Gerrard rebound. This time around Jordan Henderson kept things neat and tidy behind Kuyt while Stewart Downing drifted further and further out onto the right wing in one of the least effective performances by a Liverpool player this season. There’s little excuse for the £20M pound man Downing’s continuing irrelevance, but in the case of Henderson there’s a argument to be made that both he and the club would have been far better served had he switched roles with Gerrard on Saturday.

Even if that change had been made, however, the drop off between Downing’s effectiveness against Stoke compared to Meireles’ in a similar role last season can only be depressing for any fan who watched the tail end of last season with hope for the future. Some might call the choice not to raise his salary to match incoming recruits like Downing, Adam, and Henderson—and the way it resulted in the player feeling marginalised and unwanted beside a wave of new midfield signings in a European Championship season—poor in retrospect, but that would be to ignore that for a many it was a decision that seemed horribly misguided even at the time.

And if Downing on current form is a massive downgrade from Meireles in the formation Dalglish had little choice but to employ given the dearth of midfield steel, then this season’s Dirk Kuyt compared to the one that ended the last as Liverpool’s top scorer is also cause for concern. Kuyt, after all, has always been a streaky player; a form player. He’s either bundling awkward goals home twice a week while blundering around the pitch indefatigably or he looks as though he wouldn’t be out of place starting regularly somewhere in the third tier of English football. And when it comes to his form, there’s an argument to be made that Kuyt has never fully recovered mentally from being benched in favour of Jordan Henderson in the early going without the young Englishman having to prove he deserved the starting spot.

The tactics against Stoke made a lot of sense, and given the talent he had on hand on Saturday the only real cause for complaint is in the roles of Henderson and Gerrard. Still, it may be fair to wonder if Dalglish has effectively utilised the talent available to him when one looks at the bigger picture that is his entire first year back at the club. Those are the mistakes he needs to learn from—an entirely sensible formation deployed in a dire draw against Stoke isn’t.

Some Related Liverpool Posts:

Match Preview: Liverpool v. Newcastle, 12.30.11

Category: Miscellaneous, Premier League, Team News

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redtrev73

Fucking Disqus....

This was posted as a reply to Chipz68.

"I'm getting kind of sick of everyone defending Dalglish. Poor old Roy got crucified and Rafa copped it at the end, but apparently a fair criticism of Dalglish is just not fair game."

Listen man, anyone who says that Kenny is infallible and is a no-criticism-zone is an idiot. Dalglish, a dignified and accountable man, would be the first to tell you that himself. So you're kind of preaching to the converted with the audience on this blog, barring one or two noisy exceptions.

However, three titles and two seconds in 5 seasons and a history of building the most exciting Liverpool team many of us have ever seen buys you a certain amount of trust and good will with any rational Redman.

Comparisons with Rafa and The Hodge don't hold up. Rafa was a fantastic coach but by the end of his tenure the club was such a poisonous mix of politics and in-fighting that many people grew tired of the underwhelming team performances and blamed him for taking his eyes off the ball. "Poor Roy" was a patsy sure, but his lack of grace and constant throwing of his own players under passing buses made him loathsome to myself and others. Not even in the same galaxy as Kenny.

The majority of right-thinking fans on here have the capacity to see the flaws, critique them and still understand that what the manager is trying to do is get LFC back to where it should be. The key injuries, suspensions, poor form of expensive signings and poxy luck have undermined that process...and yes, selection, tactics and choice of transfer target have contributed also. 'Kenny is infallible' types are as benighted as 'Kenny-out' types...but Dalglish has my backing and with his contribution to LFC, however he leaves, it will never be "in shame".
Momo

Am I going to add my frustrations and my anger to the concert of all whiners over here or should I just say those little killing remarks that will unsettle most of us..?

1-We bought or shall I say we splashed big money on average British players- from 'lesser' teams -who were shining in their 'corner' at their respective clubs but were by no mean setting the world alight, otherwise they would've ended up elsewhere during the summer transfer market.Ashley Young and Phil Jones are here to outline my saying.

2-Throwing that bunch of players altogether (2+7) as regular starters hoping they would gel quickly but at the expense of an established team that emerged as such in the dying moments of the last season was a big gamble.

Given the fact those payers weren't signed the same day-no time to gel- and were 'forced' to play official games without a boss to dictate the tempo on and off the pitch it is a miracle we are just five points off the fourth spot. I know some of you would argue what is worth beating the likes of Arsenal,Chelsea and Newcastle if at the end of the day we end up beneath them in the table.Hummm...

May be our expectations were so high but I can't help it but we do have standards at LFC and everyone must cope with the pressure.

3-Every team needs a head/leader of the pack on the pitch, a heart and soul to set the standards of commitment and bravery but since our Stevie was out of the picture for almost a year the managers were struggling to find a way to drive the team from the sidelines. The players whom we're speaking of are in need of an extra-time to gel we can't give them unfortunately.

4-And here lies the real issue,the anti-merit rotation policy that took place so far is costing us,however there's a partial remedy to that.Just few days after he took over at Paris St Germain Ancelotti put under mandatory every player to carry under his belt a GPS device to watch their efforts during the training sessions,after a scandalous reaction from the press and some players,the new process of assessment which its aim is to pick the right players for the upcoming game was granted by the Qatari bosses and it worked right away since they won their first game by 3-1 with Ancelotti at the helm.

The latter was right,given he doesn't know the players yet, a blind selection based on GPS results would always narrow the risk of a mistake for him.At least with this system you always know the players who are hungry from those who are there just for the pub and the wages. Of course other factors should be weighted up by the manager before taking a final decision... but this is a good start.

According to the management guidelines at LFC,the sabermetrics method is mandatory to recruit players.So must be the GPS if we are willing to be fair to everyone committing himself to the cause of our beloved club.

5- as for the game vs Stoke it wasn't a bad tactic after all,nevetheless I still think KD is managing the team under panic. He was brought in when the club was in a civil war.
He settled a truce but was forced to buy ACDC(Andy chilled device Carroll)under panic, it was a day light robbery I would say.

Then after an appalling pre-season with mitigated results during the friendlies in which the backline gave him cold sweats more than once,he was happy to set a trend of a lot of positives until we were hard hit again by the loss of both Lucas and Suarez due to various reasons. It was unbearable but after he acknowledged 50% of the driving force of LFC was gone for a long spell he finally moved on.

Yet,his fear to be overwhelmed in the middle of the park has regained ground which led him to use six defenders vs City after we conceded 3 goals vs the latter a week before.

Against Stoke 03 CBs were thrown to deal with Stoke's hoof-ball and 2 wing-backs and not full-backs as commonly reported were set up to unlock Stoke's defence from off-set, but when you end up with a sole striker upfront who by the way has never shown any ability to hold the line on his own we're entitled to question this option.Moreover when you play Gerrard alongside Adam you are aware it can't work out.One of them is always a passenger.

Besides running at defenders and creating space behind them once you attract them is less likely to happen with players like Hendo and Downing,only Suarez can do such a thing. So where do you expect the goals will come from?

6-We are two games off a silverware, if we are crowned with the Carling cup this team will gel an gain confidence,we will then finish the season at a cruise speed with a top four finish as a season climax ,otherwise it will be a good morning vietnam,a hell of a nightmare.
Sorry for the mistakes it's 3.50Am..
Jdrzewicki9

All respect to you Noel, as you have been a great influence onto the Liverpool faithful with your thoughtful words and constant humor and analysis of Liverpool Football Club.

But I agree that a 5-4-1 is a formation that can beat Stoke City. You have to attack their infinite amount of people in the box from every possible direction you can to try and get a goal. There's also the history of it, that it worked last year with slightly different personal.

But you can argue that it was the formation to unlock them if we had the personal. We could also use the same personal we used earlier in the year in the FA Cup or even the first match against them that we lost from outstanding goalkeeping. Is our goalless draw from Saturday with five at the back superior tactically compared to the match we controlled in the league earlier this year and lost from a penalty? What about the tactics we used on the road and won in the FA Cup?
Obviously the personal is slightly different, no Suarez. But we have Gerrard now and Henderson is only getting better. So why did we need to change to an unfamiliar formation that has only been used the campaign before when we dominated them twice this year (even though we lost)?

Maybe the 5-4-1 is a great way to unlock the Stoke defense, but we've already done it this year. But it's not a great way if we don't have the personal, which mean it wasn't the best formation or the best tactics. Which again puts it on the manager. We could play tiki-taka football, but obviously it's not going to work to the beauty of Barcalona because we don't have the personal.

Summing it up, was it the right tactic to use because it's worked before? No, it's not. We didn't have the personal to use it, so it was a poor tactical choice. Maybe Henderson's probing was a Dalglish choice, and Henderson was just following instructions. It's an intricate system where people have to do their jobs to succeed. So why introduce a new formation days before a match?

But I see exactly where you're coming from Noel, and I agree with your assessment in many ways, but these are just my opinions on the matter.
jdrzewicki9

All respect to you Noel, as you have been a great influence onto the Liverpool faithful with your thoughtful words and constant humor and analysis of Liverpool Football Club.

But I agree that a 5-4-1 is a formation that can beat Stoke City. You have to attack their infinite amount of people in the box from every possible direction you can to try and get a goal. There's also the history of it, that it worked last year with slightly different personal.

But you can argue that it was the formation to unlock them if we had the personal. We could also use the same personal we used earlier in the year in the FA Cup or even the first match against them that we lost from outstanding goalkeeping. Is our goalless draw from Saturday with five at the back superior tactically compared to the match we controlled in the league earlier this year and lost from a penalty? What about the tactics we used on the road and won in the FA Cup?
Obviously the personal is slightly different, no Suarez. But we have Gerrard now and Henderson is only getting better. So why did we need to change to an unfamiliar formation that has only been used the campaign before when we dominated them twice this year (even though we lost)?

Maybe the 5-4-1 is a great way to unlock the Stoke defense, but we've already done it this year. But it's not a great way if we don't have the personal, which mean it wasn't the best formation or the best tactics. Which again puts it on the manager. We could play tiki-taka football, but obviously it's not going to work to the beauty of Barcalona because we don't have the personal.

Summing it up, was it the right tactic to use because it's worked before? No, it's not. We didn't have the personal to use it, so it was a poor tactical choice. Maybe Henderson's probing was a Dalglish choice, and Henderson was just following instructions. It's an intricate system where people have to do their jobs to succeed. So why introduce a new formation days before a match?

But I see exactly where you're coming from Noel, and I agree with your assessment in many ways, but these are just my opinions on the matter.
Suarez from the car park...

ok, that was getting a bit repetitive after the 4th post....
jpr

jonny, can you believe that. My head hurts as much as watching our impotence against Stoke. One shot on goal. Only 4 shots in the box and none on goal. Please help me.
Ynwa31

A Torres in his prime or a Gerrard in his prime would make all the difference in the world, BUT bear in mind Liverpool now face the issue of attracting top class talent without Champions League football and without paying Citeh salaries, whilst Spurs, Le Arse, Citeh, Chelski and the Mancs as a group have strengthened, it makes breaking into top 4 very very difficult (but not impossible).
Suarez from the car park...

Arse and Chelski are a bit of a state right now. We should be capitalising on that and muscling our way into 4th behind Spurs.

We've come close this season, but Stoke was a bad day at the office.

Chelski are threatening to spend big so may quickly accelerate away so I'm concerned how long the window will last.

I really think the loss of Lucas is a big deal for us. The team balance isn't nearly as good and holds back midfielders as noone else does the job like he can.

Adam needs to allow Stevie and Hendo forwards and Hendo needs to do the leg work to come back and cover. We need to pressure the box.
Red2death

Here's what I don't understand. It's not whether there are 3 or 4 at the back, or 1 or 2 upfront. Like it has been pointed out many times, a side can be very defensive or very attacking with a whole spectrum of formations. But why is there this invisible barrier around the penalty box that players are so reluctant to cross over??

If you have less pacy personnel, that's fine. There are teams that play slow, pass it around and keep possession until more teammates can support the attack. And with a side like Stoke who's happy to concede the midfield and stick nine players behind the ball, that's probably the right/only way to break them down. But with us, we bring the ball up from defence, keep it until all our attacking options are in place, and then something very strange seems to happen - our wide players combine well to make space for a cross, which is then floated in to nobody. What happened to all the red shirts? Our defenders are now in midfield, which is great. That allows our attackers to really push up, but they don't. They're just lurking on the edge of the box waiting for the ball to come out again. And why would they do that. So that they can start another great passing move ending up in another cross, after which they can retrieve possession again when it's cleared?

What's up with the reluctance to attack the goal? And who's responsible for it? You can look at the players, but that wouldn't answer all the doubts. They're the same players who can attack fine at other times or with their previous clubs. Gerrard's no stranger to charging into the box. Carroll's always been a goalmouth poacher. Bellamy used to get in there all the time. And at corners, we actually do have 4 or 5 players waiting for the cross - but only at corners, not for regular crosses. Why?
Suarez from the car park...

leadership. It's about taking responsibility and demanding the ball.
ejbauer11

I can understand Carroll not playing well b/c he's still a kid, but I'm having a hard time countenancing Downing's continued under-performance. I don't see why he stumbled after the blazing start. Given that he seems a confidence player, I don't know that benching him fixes the problem. Either way, it's getting to the point that after his first poor decision / important-touch (like missing against City) it seems he loses all football acumen.

Thanks for the post.

Have all the nay-sayers been lying in the weeds, or have y'all had a noticeable uptick in traffic, generally? The comments section reads like a freakin palin / santorum / insert-right-wing-conservative-here town hall meeting.
Noel

Our average traffic has just about doubled over the past year, but going by the comment histories of many of the more shouty (and less thinky) people over the past few days shows a lot are nay-sayers dropping their pearls of wisdom on any Liverpool story they can find on any site.
Suarez from the car park...

amazing how intimate google analytics can get.
Noel

Oh, that's just the one good thing about having Disqus as the comment system—it tracks any comment you make anywhere using it. If you click on the avatar for some of the people from the past few days you'll see the same comment posted three or four places.
ejbauer11

Ah, gotcha. Well, congrats on the uptick, which is well-deserved, even if it means increased histrionics on the comments board.
Joel

I really don't have much to say other than I agree with pretty much everything you said, Noel. And Ed regarding the comments section.

Tactically, the management has been making the right choices in most matches. The problem, as Noel points out, lies either in players not getting the job done or the management not properly communicating with the players about how to implement the tactics. Obviously, it's going to take some time for the players to adapt to a complete change in tactical approach from previous seasons, but there's been something a bit odd with this year.

The more I watch of this season, the more I'm convinced that the management sees this year as not much more than trying to get certain players experience in a rebuilding period. A top to toe squad overhaul of the type we're undergoing takes much longer than playing Football Manager for one transfer window. We've got to get the right players, get the squad to gel, and integrate the new tactical approach.

Anyways, I saw a statistic yesterday that we're the second highest chance creators in the league but the worst for finishing those chances. Really, that should tell you all you need to know about LFC this season- not playing bad, but simply not getting the job done.
Chipz68

I agree with the sentiment of the article but I can't say I agree with your point that Kenny Dalglish got it spot on tactically. And, I find it a little strange that you claim anyone who disagrees knows nothing about football.

Stoke played one lone striker, Crouch; Walters did not play striker, except for the occasional foray into the box. It's pretty simple maths. You do not need three defenders to mark one man. One to mark and one to cover, the other is just wasted and could have been deployed in midfield creating chances. If you don't believe, read up on Jonathan Wilson, Michael Cox etc, both will tell you that 3 at the back has gone out of fashion because teams no longer play with two out and out strikers, so the third centre back is wasted.

We could have had an extra passing option in midfield, instead a player was wasted defending one man while two could have controlled him. Those are bad tactics. Oh, and three at the back has nothing to do with defending against long throws.
Suarez from the car park...

three at the back doesn't have anything to do with defending long throws except that the three are big tall defenders. Idea for dealing with balls lobbed in, throws and Crouch.

if we were going to lose a goal , it was going to be from a set piece or a lobbed in ball.
Chipz68

My point still stands. Stoke played with one striker and we had three defenders marking him throughout. For the majority of the 90 minutes we could've had an extra man in midfield - as none of the defenders are really ball players, it could've worked with Agger - so if you're saying we should play 3 tall defenders (one isn't even tall and is crap at defending the high ball) to combat long throws and corners, which probably take up about 10 minutes of a game in total i'd say you're a wrong.

Why not play Carroll, despite how crap he is, and bring him back for the rare occasion Stoke try and bang one in from the touchline? The rest of the time that's an extra player we've got trying to score a goal rather than wasting his time marking one player.

Considering it's Carroll, we're not much more likely to score, but tactically it's better. So again, I don't agree that KD got it right, but I definitely agree with the sentiment that we have bought crap players who quite simply are just not good enough.

Is it really a coincidence, that the best part of our game is the defense and 4, count em: Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Reina are Rafa signings?

The other better players in our side, Lucas, Spearing, Maxi, Kuyt (not so much lately), Shelvey are all Rafa signings or were promoted from the academy by Rafa?

KD and Commolli have made two signings that have helped us right now, Enrique and Suarez. Henderson and Coates look like good prospects for the future, but neither is really able to make an instant impact.

Downing, Adam and especially Carroll are all not good enough. Not only that, KD is stubborn in his refusal to drop underperforming players. Seriously, what's the deal with Maxi not getting a game?

I'm getting kind of sick of everyone defending Dalglish. Poor old Roy got crucified and Rafa copped it at the end, but apparently a fair criticism of Dalglish is just not fair game.

Winning teams do not lovingly support a manager who currently has the side in 7th. They question what's going on at the club because what good is supporting someone who is clearly making bad decisions.

Let me leave you with this. Liverpool spent £62 million on players in the Summer and are currently 7th in the league. Newcastle United spent £12 million pounds and are one place ahead of them. If Liverpool finish below Newcastle, Kenny Dalglish should retire in shame. Just take a moment and think about the money he had available and the players we have bought.
Joel

The reason three at the back has gone out of fashion is more because most managers don't know how to properly use the three centerbacks against modern strike partners or how to properly deploy wingbacks.

The third center back is not 'wasted', rather they should be deployed as a hybrid holding midfielder/fullback in support for the attack. It's really not that different from the double pivot system of two holding mids- one center back covers, one marks, and the other screens, which is how we set up against Stoke.

The reason it wasn't effective wasn't because we used a 'defensive' formation, but it was because individual players failed to property play their roles in the tactics. Enrique was clearly uncomfortable with playing higher up the pitch as a wingback, Adam failed to work effectively with Gerrard in running the engine room, Downing lacked the discipline to stay more central, and Johnson was forced inside due to Downing's positioning. Maybe the management was naive to think the players we had could execute the formation properly, but it was categorically not a bad tactical play.

Finally, three at the back absolutely has something to do with defending long throws by putting more height on the pitch. Unless you think it's more effective to defend headers with a 5'8" player than a 6'0"+ player.
Chipz68

Or we could have played Coates and Skrtel, both six foot plus, dropped Carragher to the bench, and played Adam, Henderson and Gerrard in a midfield of a 4-3-3. That's a nice blend of height and gives us enough passing options, while having Bellamy, Maxi/Downing and Kuyt permanently giving their defense something to think about, rather than leaving Kuyt up their isolated with no one to support him.

We should spend less time trying to stop Stoke score and more time concentrating on putting the ball in the back of the net. They're not a good enough side to demand that respect, especially at Anfield.
Redarmy

what about those f--cking long throws? who cares about that? you tell me we choose our tactics at Anfield to be able to defend long throws?
Ed

Well, yeah.

I think the point is that it's a reality when playing Stoke, in the same way that if Liverpool are playing a side with pacy wingers they'll have to prepare for that. Set pieces and long throws are the way Stoke tries to win matches. It's ugly as shit and I hate it, but that's the way it is.

So it doesn't mean Liverpool are gutless or not proud or whatever other sort of bravado we want to shout about, it just means that they were thinking about the match tactically. To say that Liverpool should ignore everything about other squads just because they're Liverpool doesn't really make sense.
Unless I'm missing it entirely, in which case pass more peyote please.
Chipz68

Que es Peyote, Senor?
CheekyFellow

"
And, I find it a little strange that you claim anyone who disagrees knows nothing about football. "

http://i.imgur.com/bnUNy.jpg
Ed

We might just burn the comments section to the ground and start from scratch.
Suarez from the car park...

Can we lighten up on the sarcasm? I get confused when anyone not British uses it....
Ryan

Is it still cool to want another striker and or DM in the next window or so..? Everyone keeps writing huge-o comments that frankly I don't have time to read. I assume they are all talking about the pitch fork getogether.

I just want to make sure I'm hip and cool with everyone else.
redtrev73

Ryan, you are hip, cool, down fo' sho'....no doubt (and other street-isms)...but I had a good chuckle at YOU speaking dismissively about the "huge-o coments"!! YOU!! The King of the lengthy post!? Comedy gold brother. Look forward to your next huge-o post, as always man.
Ryan

But but but I don't wanna read their big posts, I just want everyone to read mine. But yes, who cares how you use it, it's all about length! Now I'll let your dirty mind drift...

You're certainly right, I can rant from time to time. Hard to believe I'm a scrawny guy with glasses in the real world. Wait. This is the internet. That's not hard to believe. I usually would read a good chunk of these longass posts, as a sort-of karma thing so they will read mine later. But when Ed threatens to flood the earth, I...don't know where this is going. RAINBOWS.
Suarez from the car park...

Enough about you, back to me...
jpr

Heck with you too jonny, over to MEEEE.
Ed

No, it's mostly Dalglish out or Dalglish in now. Either way you're wrong, though. Asshole Chicken.
Ryan

And to think, I was about to compare you to Noah from the Bible. Asschicken.

Hodgechicken in please, John Henry.
redtrev73

YOU ARE CHICKEN LEG!! ED is chicken man!!! Dalglish make joker chicken manager!!

Sorry Ed, I felt a little wee run down my leg at your "Asshole Chicken" comment and got carried away. I love poultry humour, it turns out...shame about the resultant incontinence...
Suarez from the car park...

'poultry humour' lol. Get it wrong and it's worse than salmonella.
jpr

Ed, you're obviously the smartest guy here. Avoid SYY's treats. It won't do you any good.
Ed

Ah, but that's where you're wrong.
jpr

I'm wrong a lot. It's OK pal.
Suarez from the car park...

Being wrong's ok. So long as you're good at it.
jpr

I'm an expert at it, along with player evaluation, tactics, and recommended signings. If somebody would just pay attention. Maybe I'll just ask SYY for some of that peyote.
redtrev73

I want to begin by making it clear that I genuinely respect all opinions and suggestions put forward on this fine blog's comment section. Unless of course you're a mischief-maker with a chicken fetish. Frankly, although you once amused me, you are unwell and should do one.

However, the tone of a lot of comments is histrionic in the extreme. Noel has taken the time to articulate a truth that is unarguable. The set-up vs Stoke was spot-on. Might alternative line-ups or systems have worked as well or better? Very possibly. That is not the point, however. The performances of those employed to implement that set-up were not good enough. The 11 on the pitch were, on paper at least, more than a match for Stoke's team.

With a solid base of Carra, Skrtel and Coates, Jonno and Enrique were free to maraud forward, as is their wont. This system can be delightfully offensive and flexible but everything hinges on the industry and guile of the 5 deployed front and centre.

If those 5 contain the likes of Maxi, Bellers and Suarez, we will get the kind of fluid interplay that makes a mockery of much tactical hand-wringing because their craft renders systems redundant. But if those 5 include the likes of a confidence-shorn Dirky, a Hollywood-or-bust Adam, a woefully inadequate Downing and a lumbering, first-touch-free Carroll....well, we struggle. Add into the mix a not-there-yet Stevie and a tidy but VERY unadventurous Hendo and it is not hard to see why the goals didn't flow.

The reasons for the ineffectiveness of these players can be, in some cases, attributed to the management. Dirky's confidence seems low and Kenny must shoulder some blame for that due to his persistence with Hendo early in the season. However, the corollary of that is that Hendo now looks at-home in the first team.

Similar points could be made about the confidence of The Lug. I was interested to read the observations on the previous thread about how Andy's 'fitness' has been managed. It is shocking to see how leaden-footed the guy looks and if we rule out being out of condition, then his added bulk has definitely slowed him down.

The biggest disappointment of all has been our famously parenthetical winger. That he still lives up to the LSD refrain in the Prem says enough.

The absence of Luis and Lucas from a developing team is a cruel blow and to suggest otherwise is naive. Even our best reserve for the virtually irreplaceable Lucas has been crocked or suspended for a large chunk of the season.

Short of new knees for Bellers and a jet-pack for Stevie I fail to see how we get out of our current funk unless the afore-mentioned players start to repay the fees and faith of the club and manager. January sucesses like Suarez don't EVER happen and it's too big an ask unless you buy at the Harrods of the transfer shopping complex.

I also don't believe it is too much to ask for Stewpot to wake-the-fuck-up and perform, for Andy to remember how to be a No. 9, for Chaz to stop up-ending oppo attackers within range of Pepe and for Hendo to let his second nut drop and be a little more adventurous.

In short, he is by no means blameless but Kenny can't PLAY for these guys. They have it in them and they need to show it. Internationals one-and-all. "Let's", as a pissed-up Delia might slur, "be 'avin' yoooooou".
kenny

Thank you
Redarmy

well, thanks to those unarguable 'spot-on' tactics we've amassed how many home draws?
if the players are not good enough, why are they playing? money, politics, stupidity?
my man Jonjo started 2 games, scored one goal and had two assists. why is he not playing? yeah, he cost 1 million and he's young, we can still use him in 3 years...

If the players don't perform it is indeed Kenny's fault, he chooses the team. he can pick other players if he wants to. there is no rule that states 'Downing has to be in the team'
redtrev73

Redarmy, maybe read my post again. Your tone seems unecessarily antagonistic and I don't see why you would choose to be.

I've said the selections are often questionable and wouldn't be my choice but the fact remains that the players on the pitch on Saturday and for each of the other 6 draws were good enough to do better.

It's out of order and plain disrespectful to suggest that "stupidity" is a valid assertion in relation to Dalglish's tactics or selection. If by 'politics' you mean pressure on the manager to display the worth of signings, then the sparing use of Carroll gives that the lie.

Many of us would prefer different personnel but for Fowler's sake, surely you can see that the ones that have taken the field need to do better for the man that sends them out?
Redarmy

That's what smoking stewpot is doing to me. Should try Ed's peyote i guess.
ejbauer11

A lot of those home draws came in performances where we pummeled the opposition and their fucking goal. Admittedly, that didn't happen this weekend, but it's not like the majority of those draws came in turgid fashion. If crossbar and post weren't in the employ of the head devil himself, we'd have another ten points.
Noel

As always top, top stuff, Trev.
Seth

3 at the back works, when one of them is Agger (who ventured forward pretty effectively in last year's 3-at-the-back show-down. Sounds like that wasn't possible this time out. But 3-at the back (with Agger as LCB) + Johnson allows you to field another attacker instead of Enrique. Then the 3-at-the back would've made sense and been a formation that both negated the aerial threat of Stoke, and allowed for enough attacking opportunities
tonyblues

Improvement is not enough because it has to be compared with our rivals. We have to improve a lot faster than the other 5. King Kenny does not have the financial might MC, MU, & Chelsea have. Now there is rumour that Spurs will have 60M available for Harry to spend. So Kenny has to be very prudent and be decisive.

Cut Adam and Downing. Rumour has it that Dafoe may be coming? Why not Lennon also?
Oral Rohon

I dont care what no one says you are what you are, and we are a fucking 6th place team. That not what we came in the season thinking...
KENNY HAVE TO GO WHY
1. name a time when kenny made tactical move that you was like damm kenny that was a good move......................................let me help you none
2. Spent all this money and what did we get for it... a 6th place team
3 35 mil for ****
4 35 mil for &&&&
ejbauer11

On the off chance you can read, which is not readily apparent from your post: who is that you would make gaffer instead?

And as an aside: "That not what we came in the season thinking" isn't exactly the most compelling argument.

And, again, we're five points off fourth place, and I think all sane-minded people will agree that if we finish fourth, the season will be have been a success.
Seanfo

The mighty Stoke came to Anfield and we picked a team and played a formation to neutralise their strengths. Am I missing something here. We are Liverpool (no disrespect to Stoke). Sounds like compensating for our weaknesses to me. 21 games played 24 goals. Players playing out of position. Hendo might be 1 for the future , but hides most of the game(how many tackles,how many meaningful passes does he make) Adam was never going to be our puppet master. Downing is so short of confidence , he doesnt even want the ball. Carrol, even I admit looked like a good buy at the time.
Point is with the exception of Carrol most of the new signings play every game. Its not working and sometimes the best thing you can do is drop a player - take him out of the spotlight and work on getting his form back. Jonjo gets forward and has pace , Maxi know where the back of the net is. Not calling for Kenny's head but tactically he has to be more aware. Carrager played the entire game (1st full game back should have been subbed) Gerard was tired - still regaining his match fitness. Kuyt was never gonna do well as a lone striker - nt his strength to hold a ball up.
Redarmy

I think Kenny got a little too creative with the players and tactics he chose for Stoke. They are a straightforward, no-nonsense team, there's no reason to employ a confusing lineup to try and outwit them tactically, Stoke are probably the least tactical team in the league. Well, Kenny tried something, it didn't work - no big problem.

The real reason why people blame Dalglish for this horrible game is that he once again proved too stubborn to change something that was not working, which was obvious after the first half. How can you justify not even using your three substitutions in a game like that? Why wait for 75min to bring on Bellers? Why let Carra and Coates finish the game?? Why not bring on Shelvey?

The failures of Kenny's game management are just too obvious to ignore. If the coach does everything he can during a game to get us a win, then I'm ready to put the blame on the players.
fastrail

Yes Kenny really had been dodgy with his substitutions most of the time. And while I do love Kenny and I don't want him to leave like some people do right now, he did made me wanted to punch my laptop while saying "use the sub goddamnit!!". I think the tactics he's got is all good, it's just the personnel that's not right and who the hell control the transfer idk. If it's him, he's got serious problem of not getting the right personnel into his tactics.
Charlie Com

Football manager has a lot to answer for..Of course you could have all bought better players played better formations etc.The post has a point we had no available dms and adam and hendo had played on wens and were bolloxed.

Dont let that stop you "experts" moaning about Italian powder puffs who did,nt want to be here or Portugese money grabbers who are happy on the CFC bench???

Point being we won,t win every game, last year we were abysmal away from home and not much better at home leaking goals left right and centre.Weve actualy resolved that under Kenny/Clarke but do admitedly lack a cutting edge

Dont agree about the transfers though hindsights 20/20 amazing how everyone knew demba ba would be a sucess etc.If you want to turn into a CFC type circus sacking managers everytime we lose/draw then carry on..we will surely progress with short term
planning like that .If on the other hand you wish to see genuine progress stop throwing toys out of the pram and be patient.Kenny will walk if its not goining to plan.So get your CVS out lads after all you could all piss the job easy could,nt you?

YNWA
Very_Angry_ Brand

Whatever it is...result shows...can we see the good result currently? I Think most of the Reds fan will answer that. We all know the manager's job is not easy, that's why we need a capable & good Manager. What LFC fans wants is result, is TOP 4..or even win the premier league. The rest, is up to the man who lead the team to figure it how, this is his job & responsibility.
nebhamoo

Damn straight...I can't believe that Kennys position is being questioned here...so what some the transfers haven't panned out, it happens, but I bet if you were to revalue all the players Kenny has bought, it's all evened out in monetary terms. People have to stop whinging about a player costing however many millions. What we should all be doing is making sure we support all the players being bought in, even if in the background hoping theyd be replaced by your fantasy football manager favourite player.

Chelsea did spend £50 million pounds on a has been after all...and apparently babel s worth £6 million to someone...so yeah, it's not all bad
Davemulligano

The side lacks any pace which has been a problem for the last few years, needs to inject some pace into the side quickly...adam and downing simply arent good enough, ive seen enough flashes from henderson to know he'll come good...just look at lucas...also shelvey should probably be given a run. Don't know why maxi isnt starting, it so bizarre...Kennys pride will be the end of him I think. Anyone who is saying we should have played Carrol is wrong, he is the worst footballer I have ever seen in a red shirt...no touch, no vision, no eye for goal and no ability to hold the ball up ala Heskey. He's just useless. Need to get rid.
DanieRed

your knowledge of football is very miniscule, what do you think Gerrard was doing in the centre, defensive! Henderson should not start games, he is the weak link at all times FACT! He cant mark, hold and beat an opponent head-on, passes at the wrong time, does not track back or even put a foot-in [now we regret losing Aquaman] he is simply a plank, who loves his LFC uniform and spends more time adjusting it and pointing fingers to other players to cover his area....Jonjo should start, Maxi should start. However the attacking style using the right & left backs was a good idea, if Maxi and Jonjo played instead of Hendo and Downing. It baffles me why Carrol is left on the bench when we play Stoke's big and not so fast back four.
justin

All hail the new gaffer! The Messiah! The "FACT" know-it-all!
Noel

My favourite part is when he answers his own question in the final line but is still baffled.
purify_the_body

"The tactics against Stoke made a lot of sense" => having trouble agreeing with this.

Agger was hurt, so all that was required was replacing him with another CB, i.e. Coates. There was no need to bring on a 3rd CB in Carragher.

Stoke were playing away, having conceded 20 goals and scored only 8. Only Fulham had scored fewer goals away. There was no big threat that required 3 at the back to nullify.

Crouch is tall (about 6'7") but so is Coates (about 6'6"). Skrtel has been excellent in the air this season.

Of course, I must agree that in combination Gerrard, Downing, Henderson, and Adam did not do enough to support Kuyt. But while that may have also been a failure, it doesn't excuse the fact that we had both Coates and Carragher sitting back on the halfway line doing nothing most of the time.

I think it would have been a fine idea to go for it against Stoke by playing:

Reina
Johnson Skrtel Coates Enrique
Henderson Adam
Kuyt Gerrard Downing
Carroll

And I don't even like Adam or Carroll. But at least this formation would have made some sense, getting 4 of our better attacking players up the pitch with the less dangerous Adam & Henderson to do the distribution and backup.

P.S. God, we suck. Look how pathetic this "attacking" lineup is I've just made. No wonder we can't score.
Geoff Twentyman

2/3 attack minded signings makes all the difference to the squad; now these aren't necessarily realistic transfer targets or a top fit to our team, but it illustrates the point:

----------------------Reina/Doni-----------------------------
Johnno/Kelly---Skirt/Carra------Agger/Coates----Enrique/Robbo
------------Lucas/Spearo-----Hendo/Adam-------------------
James Rodriquez/Kuyt----Hamsik/Gerrard---------Downing/Ramirez
------------------------Suarez/Carroll-------------------------
Redarmy

oh yeah, we suck ;-)

the most 'attacking' lineup for this game that i can think of would be something like...

Reina
Kelly Skrtel Coates Enrique
Henderson
Johnson Shelvey Gerrard Bellamy
Carroll
KC

It makes me depressed to think that Meireles left us to get higher wages but he now sits on the bench, and we are missing a player miles better than Adam and Downing. Its a lose lose situation both ways and I think you can't blame either Meireles or Liverpool for it. But players come and go and I'm hoping that in January and in the Summer transfers that we can get players that will improve the team as a whole.

I feel like Kenny's biggest mistake has been some purchases transfer window, more particularly spending too much money on British players, but I think he's done everything else pretty right. But people make mistakes and I think KD's proven that he does learn from his. Although on the field we've been a bit on and off, off the field everyone in Liverpool is working together and our academy is flourishing and the future looks bright and I think he's played a part in that. I'm not near a point where I'm calling for Kenny's head, it'll take a lot more depression than that.
lfc80uk

However, for LFC to get better players in the summer, they need to be in the Champions League. Players nowadays do not care about a clubs history and tradition, they are there for money and the spotlight. Bar Suarez and Coates, every player signed by Comolli/Dalglish has been from a British team. For a team to work in the modern era you need a mix of British as well as continental players.

Now rumours have linked us with Bent, Defoe, Sinclair..... See a pattern! It would be refreshing for the club to scout some talent from the other top leagues in the world. Players like Soldado, Llorente, Cavani, who are all top players. I just hope Liverpool change their transfer policy and stop buying flavours of the month. And not only that... British flavours of the month! Time and ultimately results will paint their own picture.
Eddykamal

come on, 20m for downing n hendo, it is completely unacceptable,35m for you know who and its called mismanagement, give Swansea's Rodgers that amount and champions league they'll qualified no problem. Plz liverpool fc do something and try to lure Rodgers next season, his managing and tactics is there to see, imagine what he could do with Mr JW Henry backing, what are they waiting for? Wait till he'll end up at Old Trafford? Another 20 years of nightmares?
justin

This season they're saying give Swansea's Rodgers the cash and he'll turn a team into tiki-taka champs. Last season they were saying Owen Coyle's got Bolton playing like tiki-taka champs. Oh, and there's Ian Holloway too, weren't Blackpool just smashing?

Now, let's take a look at where Bolton and Blackpool are before we get carried away eh.

Take nothing away that the club has overspent on recruiting these British players this season but not so long ago we had Antonio Nunez, a little more recent we'd finished 7th place and then even more recent we were 17th at Christmas.

I'll take any progressive improvement even if there are deficiencies. The performance at Stoke wasn't the greatest but we've all seen what this side is capable of and sometimes, all they really should get is that little bit more support and patience.
purify_the_body

Let's see, signing Carroll after a half season of success was mismanagement, so you want to hire a new manager after a half season as well...?
Davemulligano

kenny should obviously stay as manager, he has to be given the season but but I think transfers should be looked at by Damien Commoli overall...Kenny reliance on British players is not paying off.
Nic

I was under the impression that Comoli IS the one handling transfers, isn't that why we get the cheesy grin and handshake with the player mainly from Comoli!?

Comoli even said he goes to Kenny and shows him players he reckons will fit in with the team, Kenny suggests players and give yes' or no's but Comoli handles scouting, contracts etcI thought Kenny coached the team and organized tactics, with Clark & Kean!?

Anyway, totally agree with Noel here, tactics - YES! Execution by players - NO!

We know that the plan [according to Sabermetrics] was to buy players in the Summer that create chances, Adam/Henderson/Downing and as bad as we think those players are, LFC are creating loads of chances both clear cut and not and the possession stats are alarming at times for us [69% on Saturday].

So according to the stats, we should be looking at players who average out at about 30% of the chance conversion over a season, i wouldn't be surprised to see 2 strikers arrive next Summer, an out and out striker and a striker who plays just off the forward.

I really do think we're 2 big signings off being real contenders. I know we always think that, but i really do think we're that close now.

Kenny has the tactics spot on [for most games] it's just the personnel that we need now.