I Think You Lost Me There

By: Ed | November 1st, 2009

“I don’t have to win a trophy.”

Maybe a bit sensationalist to leave that excerpt as the lead-in, but the overall thrust of an article from the Times(among other sources) is that Rafa Benitez feels that progress alone is an acceptable indicator of success. Since there’s plenty of ammo here, I figured it’s best digested quote-by-quote:

“I don’t agree with people when they say you have to win trophies. You have to be close and create a group of players that can fight for trophies.”

I’m not sure which people Rafa is referring to, but these people must not be interested in professional sports. Certainly the players have to have the ability to challenge for trophies, but having players that get you close is not cutting it.

“We got 86 points in the Premier League last year and some people say it wasn’t a good season. But to finish second and close the gap between the top team and us to four points was a massive achievement. “

The joy of last season’s second-place finish was…non-existent. You compete to win trophies, not to watch others celebrate with them. I think it was a season that was largely positive, but for Liverpool the expectation is much more than runners-up.

“Trophies mean a lot to everyone but to see the team progress means you can guarantee you will be there in the future and you can fight for trophies.”

The progression of a team from season to season does not necessarily guarantee future success. Teams progress backwards at times, forwards at others. To imply that the successful progression of a team over a five-year period is somewhat linear seems misguided at best. In fact, some would say that another trophyless, second-place finish after winning a continental trophy four years previously is not much of a progression. But trophies don’t matter that much, eh?

“People can say I have been here for five years but you can see the difference. Compare the value of the club before and the value of the club now. Compare the value of the squad before and the value of the squad now, you can see the progression.”

Someone better than I will probably break this down to see if it’s accurate, but offhand I’d say the value of this squad, particularly the one that was on the field for the last twenty minutes at Craven Cottage on Saturday, isn’t breaking many banks. There’s definitely players with high value on the squad (Gerrard, Torres, Masch), but there’s room for argument. Mssrs. Hicks, Gillett, your thoughts?

“We needed to do something to protect the player. We were more or less in control of the game. If we had left him on the pitch maybe we would have lost the player for a month. It was a difficult decision but we decided to start with him because he can do a proper warm-up. But we decided to take him out at 60 minutes. The last time he played 80 minutes it took him four days to be fit.”

This is obviously one of the biggest bones of contention from Saturday-the decision to take Fernando Torres off with 30 minutes left to play. Being “more or less in control” at that time was largely due to the presence of Torres, who was the only player on the pitch that really looked threatening. I can completely understand setting a limit for a player, but I’m more of the mind that the flow of the game should make that limit fluid. Letting emotion completely influence the decision to keep a player on would have been foolish, but that’s never a worry with Rafa, one of the more collected-seeming managers around. You can’t see Rafa setting the 60-minute limit for Torres and then changing his mind, can you?

Now Torres could have limped off injured at the 70-minute mark and Benitez would look like a genius, but taking off Benayoun minutes later did nothing but damn Rafa’s decision-making further. Both players looked less than impressed to be subbed off, and the fallout since then has mirrored their responses. Ronnie Whelan, one of the more outspoken former Liverpool players, has gone so far as to say that Rafa has given up on the league. Around the 80-minute mark on Saturday, there could be little argument that it’s fiction.

The club is up against it, and they’ll need every bit of resolve to get a result against Lyon on Wednesday.

Some Related Liverpool Posts:

Category: Team News

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kai

Seems like there's no way to analyze Liverpool matches lately. It's all as good as random... :(
steven.

Houllier got worse whereas Rafa is getting better .. UEFA Cup < Champions League ..
Pride of Lyon

It is a shame Liverpool can't start with its best squad tonight, but Lyon as well is diminished. Hopefully, the teams will offer us a good match.
Ed

I get the logic there, but three seasons earlier Liverpool finished 7 off the leaders, then 19, then 30, then 37...so either we're working with some serious bell curve action here, or there's really no rhyme or reason to what's going on. And nobody here (at least me) is really calling for a sacking, but I think it's pretty clear that if Liverpool aren't able to get results, there's little hope for Rafa. Besides, it would be at least two years to play Tranmere, they're going down to League Two for sure.
steven.

Rafa's first season in charge we finished 37 points off the leaders .. last term we were 4 points off the top .. go ahead and sack him .. maybe then we'll get to play Tranmere twice a year ..
Diane

Yeah, I was a little worried about having to live up to Jim...

Scary times coming up. Gerrard and Torres will be out at some point in the season, paying now or later, and someone's going to have to bring out the best in the rest of the boys when they're not around. We may not tear up the league in their absence but we don't have to be as poor/disorganized as we've been, I hope, do we?
Ed

Thanks for the well though-out comment Diane, although I think your eloquence still falls short of jim's :) You raise a really interesting and critical point for Liverpool's season, and one that has no easy solution. I would certainly agree that taking care of the players needs to be the primary objective, but as you mention, squad depth is a major concern, particularly with their ability to disappear as often as they step up. Could just be due to lack of consistent playing time, but if the performances of Babel, Voronin et al. are any indicator, relying on the rest of the squad could equate to missing out on a lucrative Champions League spot in a season where fourth place is very much up for grabs. It's got to be discouraging for the club, but it's clear this stretch is defining the season, and they'll need to work towards some sort of solution quickly.
Diane

Oops, meant to say..."But we certainly won't win it with Gerrard and Torres a doubt each week."
Diane

Like everyone else (probably), I've been reading the press post-Fulham and ahead of Lyon. Also, like everyone else, I now know that Torres has had a hernia ever since returning from national duty. And that both he and Gerrard may need surgery. If they don't they will be playing injured: at less than 100% and, of course, at risk of further and possibly more serious injury.

We have all talked about lack of depth and the pros and cons of Rafa's approach, but the one thing I absolutely think he should do now is fix Gerrard and Torres the right way. If Gerrard needs surgery so be it. Torres certainly does. Do it now (they should have done it before Fulham). Let the six week recovery span the next international break and let's not play our most valuable players injured. Actually let's not play anyone injured if we can help it, but it often turns out that the least expendable players -- not just on LFC -- are most often put at risk.

In terms of who will take their place. No one in the squad can exactly step into their shoes, but we've seen that they can step up significantly at times. How will that be possible if the message from the manager is that he would rather bring Torres on on a stretcher than risk the clubs fortunes on the useless lot that are left.

According to the docs, Torres can play without the surgery but in constant pain and for who knows how long before it overwhelms, and he can't participate in practice. (I thought hernia's could rupture but I don't know if physical exertion causes that or it just happens).

Let the non-Torres/Gerrard contingent raise their game the same way players all through the league, who are less highly rated, are asked to do every weekend and have succeeded in beating teams we have not.

I am as heartbroken as anyone thinking that we may not win the league, particularly while Carra is still in the team that lifts the cup. But we certainly won't win it with Gerrard and Torres. And the least of the problems is how does the team find/keep a rythm if those two can't practice?

Sorry if I've gone over old material too tediously. I thought it might be better than muttering to myself?
Ed

Well said, jim.
jim

liverpool sucks big time losers hell their manager is happy to lose hahahah
Liverpool Shirts

Rafa has done well with Liverpool there is no doubt, maybe h has taken them as far as he can. A lack of funding is not an excuse for Rafa he has spent a lot of money and the squad is not there to justify the cost. Torres is one of the best strikers in the world but apart from that what world class players has he signed for Livepool? the only other top player is Gerrard and he was at Liverpool already. Alonso was a quality player and we haven't seen Aquilani yet in a Liverpool shirt but when Ryan Babel and Voronin are your back up strikers then you clearly don't have the depth of squad needed to win the title.
Rob

I can see what he's getting at - last season was a good season for you, because it improved on the year before. But the only way to improve on 2nd, is surely 1st, so he does have to win a trophy to win his own argument.
Jeremy

When did Liverpool become the kind of club where taking one player out with 30 to go is a match changing problem. Without Torres, even making the Europa League would be a stretch.
Mike de Vries

When I first read the bit about the "value" of Liverpool my mind went to the "For Sale" sign that's hanging outside Anfield and Hicks jumping up and down yelling, "Come make me an offer: I'm now accepting food stamps and your best intentions".