Fear and Loathing in North London

By: Noel | September 19th, 2011
   
kenny dalglish tottenham

It has to be fair game to wonder what happened to the faith Kenny Dalglish showed John Flanagan towards the end of last season; to wonder where it went on the back of a poor performance that owed a great deal to the young fullback being left exposed by the man playing in front of him.

It has to be fair game to wonder about the insistence on playing that man, Jordan Henderson, ahead of the more experienced Dirk Kuyt no matter the circumstances—even when coming up against one of the league’s top six clubs on the road. Even when the club has no proven, fit, senior right back available to play behind him on the right. Kuyt may have his flaws and detractors, but his ability to make the fullback behind him and midfielder beside him look better through sheer, dogged workrate has never been up for discussion, and even those who thought his minutes would decrease in light of the new summer signings assumed there would be matches where his inclusion would be a foregone conclusion. Like when the club was faced with Tottenham and Gareth Bale on the road with Martin Skrtel as a makeshift right back.

martin skrtel red card tottenham

It has to be fair game to wonder about the wisdom of allowing both Alberto Aquilani and Raul Meireles to leave—no matter the specifics of each case—over the summer, both players that it’s hard to imagine wouldn’t have provided an improvement on the performances on display against Tottenham on Sunday. Similarly it’s hard to imagine the most common trio that ended last season—Spearing, Meireles, and Kuyt—wouldn’t have been a huge improvement over the three men who replaced them in yesterday’s starting eleven. Stewart Downing may have been the only early summer arrival that didn’t lead to widespread sneering from superior superfans falling back on the regrettable argument that to not blindly trust in the manager’s decision is a sign of moral weakness, yet to date he’s the only one who appears to have actually improved the first eleven while Charlie Adam has run as hot and cold as he did at Blackpool and Jordan Henderson—a player so many insisted was one for the future despite his high fee—has indeed looked like one for the future no matter that the manager has so far shown an insistence starting him week in and week out.

*

Kenny Dalglish was always going to seek to build his squad, despite that the players he ended last season with seemed a group needing supplementation instead of demolition and a complete rebuild. Every manager does it, after all. Despite winning the Champions League in 2005, Rafa Benitez sought to largely overhaul a group of players he saw as not good enough for the long haul despite that success, and looking back it’s hard not to agree that the core as it existed at the time did need to be significantly upgraded in order to achieve further success—even if that success, in the main, then failed to materialise. Roy Hodgson, too—in his own way and seeking to match his own image—attempted a rather unsuccessful reshaping of the squad, a rebuild most agreed was needed at the time even if the general consensus was that the job done was an exceedingly poor one that left fans whispering Carlton Cole as a boogeyman.

In light of this, some will talk of the difficulties incorporating the new players in a new system, yet the reality is that their disingenuous apologism is only really making excuses for two of those new arrivals. Despite a poor showing yesterday, the consensus has been that Stewart Downing adjusted well early on and has been an improvement over what was available on last season’s Liverpool squad, while Jose Enrique has to date been the bright spot of the season. Then there’s Doni, the back up goalkeeper, who may not see a minute of gametime this season, while Craig Bellamy and Sebastian Coates are understandably being eased into proceedings. All that leaves is Charlie Adam, who has looked like the same streaky player he was at Blackpool, unable to control midfield against any side with the ability to put pressure on him and rob him of the time he needs to laboriously pick a pass, and Jordan Henderson.

Even then, nobody is being especially critical of the latter, as it is assumed that as a promising twenty-year-old Henderson has the time and ability to improve his game. Which leaves the question of why when it comes to him: Why is a young, unfinished prospect being forced into a sink or swim situation where desperate supporters will have to fall back on the “But it takes time to bed in!” strawman argument in an attempt to defend his needless inclusion?

And then, of course, there’s Charlie Adam, a player supposedly at the peak of his abilities who—judging by the outgoings over the summer—was brought in to be a regular part of the team’s first eleven. Maybe it does take some players more time to settle into a new system than others, but Scott Parker—his newly arrived from a relegated side counterpart at Tottenham—certainly didn’t seem as though he needed time to settle in on Sunday when he ran circles around Adam, eventually drawing the foul that would get the Liverpool midfielder sent off with his second yellow of the afternoon. Meanwhile Adam’s glaring flaws are the same ones that those who watched him closely at Blackpool were worried about from the minute he signed, leaving all those hopes that he eventually settles in to instead be hopes that at this late stage in his career he develops into a player he’s never been in the past. Which is an entirely different matter.

charlie adam tottenham tackle studs red

Then, of course, if the argument that players need time to settle wasn’t little more than a deflective cry for the blindly faithful, one would have little choice but to fall back on the uncomfortable fact that the squad that ended last season didn’t seem as though it needed to be overhauled so thoroughly in the first place. It might be natural for a new manager to seek to reshape a squad in his own image, but if he does so to a side that seems in fairly good shape to begin with and it leads to worse results—or simply to a group of players who need six months or a year to fully integrate—it still cannot help but be the managers responsibility for making those decisions at the end of the day.

*

Despite all of that, it’s still early days: Every club and every manager will have setbacks. And in the manic-depressive world of sports fandom a thorough thumping of Brighton and Wolves—though neither are anything like sure things—will likely have people praising players unreservedly and dreaming of finishing even higher than fourth.

Still, if the mood emanating from some quarters over the summer was that blind faith in the manager was a must—faith in his plans demanding conformity of belief, faith in his willingness to let certain players go instantly making them surplus to requirements in any possible world, faith in his new signings brooking no question as to their ability—it is important not to let a result like Sunday’s lead to a polar opposite and complete lack thereof. But it is right to question if Liverpool’s midfield—barring the possibility of Steven Gerrard overcoming fitness concerns that have dogged him for the past two seasons—is in fact now weaker than it was last season. It’s right to question the wisdom of playing a youngster most saw as one for the future as a locked-on member of the squad’s best eleven no matter the circumstance. And it’s right to question the use of a two-man midfield pairing against a side like Spurs, especially when one of those men is a defensively suspect and off the pace Charlie Adam whose success—limited though it might have been when one moved beyond match of the day highlight packages—was built off his inclusion in a midfield trio that allowed him to skip the hard work.

One game does not a season make, but a performance like yesterday’s leaves nothing but questions, questions that go beyond the performance of a single player or a dodgy substitution. Questions too numerous to be broken down with a chart and pithy comment. Questions too numerous to be put to bed by the typically comforting performance of the manager with the press. And questions that can be made all the more pressing if the club doesn’t find its feet immediately for a quick pair of matches against Brighton on Wednesday and Wolverhampton on Saturday—but questions that even in the best case scenario likely cannot be fully answered until this manager and group of players face off against Everton and Manchester United in October and Chelsea and Manchester City in November. Right now, though, those four matches make for a daunting, even terrifying, quartet, because while this one exceptionally poor showing against Tottenham won’t make or break the season, that run of four opponents across six games most certainly will answer—for good or ill—all the questions left behind by Sunday’s debacle.


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  • Nic

    Noel, Ed - i salute you!

    Having had to go cold turkey for 2 days, without so much as a forewarning [at least addicts get that] there's just nothing that quite satisfies like an offside read.

    As i said before and echoed others 'Praise be to Fowler' and 'HalleLucas'

    Now, as i've been nice...

    I'm not sure if Noel's doing his usual wizardry or is actually upset with KK...please i need to know?

    I too won't follow blindly and without critique of how Liverpool play...that's our right as fans.

    I'm just not sure where this all came from?

    Kenny pretty much post-match admitted that he and the team just didn't get it right on the day, didn't mentioned the ref's decisions [which he probably could have and hid behind that], didn't take anything away from Spurs but admitted that we were bloody awful and need to improve.

    We weren't crap after the 1-1 draw with Sunderland [Where Flanno, if some fans had got their hands on him after the game could have potentially found himself castrated, made a cock-up of marking the man at the back post] , we weren't going to be guaranteed a top 4 finish after beating Arsenal, we weren't outplayed by a Stoke side that teams will struggle to play against at the Brittania and we're not totally crap because we couldn't beat a Spurs side at the Lane [who only recently by Citeh] hadn't lost a game at home for their longest ever run in the EPL.

    I love frequenting here, like it's my local [unfortunately i'm still waiting for someone to buy into the idea that we should get free beer vouchers for adding comments].

    Just trying to keep things in perspective as we try to move forward [which i think we have under Kenny]

    Nic

  • poorscouserbobby

    You know long story short nonsense and so on.  I got sent off for my side this week (MY GOD a terrible reffing decision that I politely protested...vigorously), (which hilariously I went 0-1-3 this weekend, My pub team drew, and Auburn, Liverpool and my fantasy football team lost, good stuff right?) My wife who loves the game as much as I do, said to me, maybe you're forgetting the game part of it.  Got me thinking... Yes we want to win, but it's just a game.  Yes Liverpool.. I bleed Liverpool Red.  I swear there are little Liverbirds etched on my blood cells.  When the wife first got pregnant, first baby present... my first Liverpool kit.  But maybe we've stopped enjoying the game for what it is  The ups the downs, the joys the heartbreaks. The King has been with the game for longer than most of us have been alive.  He's got more than a clue.  Is it possible for him to make mistakes and think to himself my GOD why did I buy Charlie Adam? Sure, but IF there wasn't something he offered to the team, he wouldn't be on the pitch.  If King Kenny told me to cover myself in JP-8* and follow him to the gates of hell** would I do it?? Well maybe.. but you get the drift.  Lighten up, enjoy the game more.  

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J... alabamabob flambe?

  • redtrev73

    Bob, you are a wise and yoda-like man. Thanks for the reality check dude. I guess it's because the world in general is gone to shit that the Redmen take on such exaggerated significance. I'd love to think I have been enlightened  enough to watch the Brighton game with gleeful abandon but if they lose I'll probably bleed Liverbirds myself...from my actual, y'know, liver.....

  • poorscouserbobby

    I just have personally been to caught up with the stupid stuff rather than the game in and of itself.  and I'll correct my stats 0 wins, 3 losses and 1 tie.  just for posterity ya know?

    Thank you I do.. mmm?

  • etipok

    I'm no tactical expert so if I'm talking **** please forgive me. To me it seemed our players put  absolutely no pressure on spurs when they had possession. Spurs' passing wasn't barcalonaesque, the passes they played were quite obvious but their midfield had time to get their heads up and find their teammates. The receiving spurs' players always seemed to be in space as our players weren't anticipating and closing down. Subsequently we were constantly chasing shadows. Spurs' passing wasn't particularly quick, certainly United pass it much quicker as did Arsenal before they ended up in this rut and City's tempo is also quite high. I suppose what I'm saying is that the problem isn't so much the lack of quality in our squad but, in the Spurs game at least, the lack of commitment, passion and hunger and that's probably because they've started believing the hype after one decent game against Bolton (Sunderland - second half was abysmal, Arsenal - very lucky against a team for whom everything is going wrong and Stoke - ok performance but we lost, not good enough). Since Kenny has taken over all I've heard is how much the atmosphere has changed and of course that's a good thing but prior to the Spurs game some of our players were saying how enjoyable training is. Maybe its time for it to be less enjoyable and for some of our players to knuckle down and put their heart and soul into playing for this club. Charlie Adam, you haven't arrived just yet. You may have arrived at the club but the club is nowhere near where it should be, so either play with passion, pride and purpose or f**k off.

    On a more positive note I thought Carroll was much better as his touch seemed a little better and I think it's unfortunate for him that things worked out the way they did because we never got to see if there has been any significant improvement. Personally I think he'll come good, it's just a question of time, though I do feel like an idiot for mocking Dzeko last season, when Carroll
    had a better scoring record over the same period.                                                   

  • redtrev73

    You're dead right on all points here etipok. All I can say is, I concur fella.

  • archduke_franz

    As for Kuyt, his work rate means its almost like having two players on the pitch for one, since he covers so much ground. Plus, I feel like he has showed as of the last couple years that his positional intelligence is extremely high. How often does it seem like he gets lucky ball spillage or a blown clearance which leads to a poacher goal? If I lose my Gerrard jersey, hes the one i replace him with.

    Let's not disparage Skrtel too much, he is clearly not supposed to play at right back. Did anyone else almost fall on the ground laughing with delight when he charged into the box to attack against Stoke (I think?)?

  • Russell

    Also, AdamSonofIstanbul, I don't know if you saw but I responded to your comment where we had a little confrontation about 3-4 blogs ago.  If you didn't see, it was basically me saying I was being a right asshole and that it was only meant to be friendly banter.  So, take me back?

  • Russell

    I'd rather see Henderson in the starting 11 than Adam. His movement and defensive abilities are far superior, and I like his quick passing.  I hope that he is used more in the center where he can excel rather than on the wing.  Also, I have a strong feeling that he and Gerrard would would very well together and I feel a midfield three of Gerrard-Lucas-Henderson would be a great balance between long, raking balls and pass & move.  

  • Geoff Twentyman

    I like the sound of that. A Lucas/Hendo double pivot, Gerrard behind Suarez like the Gerrard-Torres partnership.

  • Russell

    Exactly.  A very free-flowing midfield with Gerrard and Henderson switching every now and then.

  • Sandro

    On Henderson I just can't help but thinking Lucas Lucas Lucas. This might be a weak illogical argument but he has all the attributes to be a fantastic midfielder. Talking to my mate who was a Spurs supporter yesterday the thing I was most worried about was Skrtel up against Bale which proved correct, and yeah Kuyt would likely have improved on the situation through sheer Duracell willingness. Despite this, I'm one of those blind followers Noel was talking about. The season turns on little moments which unfortunately to this point we haven't seized. If Henderson had converted one of those 3 shots against Stoke we all would've gone into this weekend thinking 2 goals in 3 appearances for a 20year old midfielder who's also played a couple of great through balls for Suarez. I understand that notwithstanding those misses he's blown hot and cold, but for me his presence in the team still far outweighs the benefits.

    Maybe starting him away against Spurs wasn't the best decision and maybe he'll loose him place anyways when Gerrard returns, but I don't think that should make us immediately say that he doesn't deserve a starting spot.

  • Guest

    Ladies and Gents, I have terrible news: Lucas is evidently only a 78 overall in FIFA 12.  Two points lower than Adam. This is obviously horseshit if true.

    Sorry if I distracted anyone from reading/commenting about yesterday's abortion of a game...

  • Ryan

    Seriously? That's stupid. You have much better ball skills than that. 

  • Guest

    Suffice to say, if I were the real Lucas, I might be slightly insulted by EA Sports. This is, of course, a ridiculous hypothetical because I am just a humble guy who watches football and plays it on my Xbox. A humble guy who also sort of likes Lucas and, maybe I'm sugarcoating it here, but I like Adam a little less...

  • Lis

    Maybe Sue's behind it.

  • Sandro

    this is important news, bullshit if true

  • redtrev73

    I'm glad to see a return to the regulars and a level of reasoned debate in the comments section. Like mardia says, it's tempting to avoid the interweb after a pasting like the one we received on Sunday, primarily because you don't know what kind of nonsensical and reactionary knee-jerkery you may encounter. Yesterday they even infiltrated our beloved blog and after a while I contented myself with some twitter talk with a few good men.

    Great points being made by some of you guys today. I fully get the idea of not having the blinkers on when it comes to Kenny. He wouldn't thank anyone for questioning him and has the ability to eat a journo whole but it's that snippiness and ferocity that proves the guy's conviction. With Kenny NOTHING is more important than LiverpoolFootballClub (it was always one word with Dalglish). This much we can rely on and this much gives me consolation.

    Lest I come over as the type of fanboi (yes, i can be down with the kids) who has irked Noel with their blind faith just as surely as the clowns calling for The King's head, let me say the following;

    - Kuyt must start
    - Hendo needs phasing in
    - Carroll has to play furthest rorward or not at all...okay, that last one
    - Flanno couldn't have been as bad as Skrtel...hell, I've recently ruptured my achilles and I'D be
      better
    - On current form, Adam ain't a starter when Stevie's back.
    - Despite the turnover in personnel, we're VERY light at centre-mid if Charlie isn't doing it and
      Stevie's crocked. (That said, there is an element of revisionism about the Aqua debate. He
      is classy in possession but simply never OWNED a game when played. The loss of the classy
      Portuguese hipster/judas/whatever simply exacerbated the situation.)
     
    These are ideas shared by many but not the boss. Maybe instead of blind faith we can agree that we will all disagree often with Kenny's take on team selection and tactics and hope for a return to the sort of results that makes that disagreement a moot point.

    I trust this man more than anyone on the planet with the care of LFC. He will succeed I believe but if he fails it will be with dignity. Why then have so many rushed to embrace his failure? This is the mancs best start to a campaign since '85. That was Kenny's first season as player/manager and it ended with the Double.

    It hasn't been easy but this community, led by Ed and Noel, has been a source of measured criticism and cautious optimism. Much appreciated guys. The intelligence is heartening.

    A point dropped on day one, a mugging at Stoke and one godawful car-crash with a team in it's infancy. Cause for alarm? Damn right. I'm alarmed! Cause for 'Dalglish out' chants and the systematic critical deconstruction of new players by numpties with an agenda? As Kenny said to Arsene, "Piss off!"

  • mardia

    I said earlier that I've been avoiding the internet, but comments like these remind me why it's worth wading in sometimes.

    Anyway, to your specific points. Yes, Kuyt needs to start, PARTICULARLY if we've got either Skrtel or Flanagan at right back. Because currently Hendo's not cutting it and not offering enough in way of protection/defense.

    Right now, Hendo's less of a concern for me than Charlie Adam. Hendo needs phasing in, and I don't think anyone (except probably Kenny) saw him as anything other than a good prospect, but as you've pointed out, thanks to the defection of Meireles from LFC, we're REALLY light at CM if he's off-form and Gerrard's not fit. With Hendo, I can accept it's a matter of youth needing time to settle (sorry, Noel) but with Charlie...I don't know, I'm afraid this whole Jeykll-Hyde aspect of his play might be a chronic thing. That's why, for me, it might not be the worst idea to have both Kuyt and Maxi in the starting XI for a bit, at least until Gerrard's back to full fitness. I know this deprives us of at least one left-footer, but at least it doesn't force us to witness Adam's attempts at tackling.

  • Geza27

    I've got to say that this is the only place on the net where I dare to wander after a terrible afternoon like yesterday's.

    This said, once in a while I happen to disagree on some (minor?) points. In this case the comment on Aquilani - I am really not sure that we would have been better off with him on the pitch. He did have  a couple of promising games in the red shirt but he never delivered a comanding performance under pressure? Well, I am pretty sure he didn't. 
    Let's not forget as well that doing really great in Italy where the game is played with a different tempo, tactics and level of engagement is by no mean a guarantee of even modest success in the premier league. 

    On the other hand I completely agree with the same point on Raul. Comolli and Kenny took a big gamble on Gerrard's fitness for this season and next. Adam is a decent squad player but nothing more I am afraid.

  • Geoff Twentyman

    You've got to hope that Adam was brought in as Gerrards understudy in centre midfield, because if he was bought to start then I am concerned at Kenny's judgement!

    In saying that, if he's Gerrards understudy then that means Hendo was bought to start.

  • Latortillablanca

    early days, early days, lets see where we're at after another 5 games.  that stretch of 6 that u bring up will be BRUTAL tho, no doubt.

    any else rockin a gnarly day after depressing game day hangover?  goddamn, drove to work this morning and halfway there realized i might not have been in premium condition to be behind the wheel... meh, bring on the brighton drubbing, need a pick-me-up this week...

  • JPR

    It better be a Brighton drubbing. Let's give Maxi an (easy?) game so that he can get a few goals and we can all remember how good he can really be. Then maybe he'll get a game at Wolves. Is Stevie back for Brighton? Please Stevie be 95% and strong like a rock. How can KK pick Hendo ahead of Kuyt after Sunday? It's seems almost incomprehensible. But, he must see something that we are not party to.
     
    Great article Noel. You always show a willingness to discuss issues that many of us are thinking about but are unsure whether to bring up. And you bring a depth of perception and a measured quality of analysis that is not found elsewhere. Does anyone really trust Charlie to be effective against any top side with pace in the midfield? I fear the good Charlie split personality will only be found against the lesser sides, sometimes.

    The United and City games have the real possibility of creating a mass insurrection. If anyone witnessed what United did to Spurs, that 10/15 at Anfield game could be hell. At least we'll have 45,000 fans giving the devils a piece of their mind.

  • Barry

    It doesn't matter at what level you play football, whether it's for LFC or the Eagle and Child 3rd XI, a player can look around him and realise that he has to alter his game or he's going to get spanked. On this, both Adam and Skrtel failed, and neither can offer up an acceptable excuse. Kenny's only real mistake was trusting in these two numpties to act like professional footballers and not as a pair of dimwitted Sunday League cloggers with one brain-cell between them.

  • NotTooXabi

    5 Games in - 2 Home, 3 Away (with 2 being very difficult places to play). Unbeaten at home. Struggling on the road. The world is not on fire. The next five: Wolves (H), Everton (A), ManU (H), Norwich (H), WBA (A). Is 10 points a realistic target? 

    How much do people expect Carroll and Suarez to be compatible in the same XI? I'm not sure this is the biggest priority. When you start at the top with one choice -Suarez's shiftiness or Carroll's beastliness- the rest of the team sort of picks itself, right?

    Carra's creaking, Agger's crocked, Adam's lackluster, Gerrard's missing...just how strong is the LFC's spine? And then there's an issue that joined me after my 3rd single malt: Lucas. Top player but he's a beta rather than an alpha. And we could use an alpha under 30 years of age right now. If he developed that extra layer of snarl and temerity, a few things we noticed these past few weeks might have been sorted on the field. Is it fair to expect/want Lucas to be that "grab the match by the short and curlies" kind of player?

    *Left my clever pants at your mom's. Apologies.*

  • Geoff Twentyman

    Lucas's role is to break up attacks and distribute the ball quickly to others to go on and creat. Think Busquets at Barca. He often drops back to help the defence almost as a virtual centre half at times; and you don't often see him cross the halfway line. Is he seen as absolutely integral to Barca's style of play? Hell yeah. Is he as sexy as Xavi/Iniesta/Messi - hell no, but without him they wouldn't have the freedom to do what they do.

    It all depends on the system being played, but IMHO Lucas needs a creative player next to him. I liked Meireles sitting deep with him dictating the middle of the park. Two mobile possession orientated players with a band of 3 attacking midfielders in front of them. Not the eptiomy of Destroyer/passer like Xabi&Masch, but a hybrid of a bit of both.

    There are so many young midfielders turnign in good performances at the moment, there shouldn't be a shortage of picking up quality youth but we've got to get back into the CL places to be in a position to pick up exactly who we want.

  • NotTooXabi

    Agree with your tactical take on L21; my question centers on his place on the leadership totem pole. To use your Barca example, Busquets is a good beta since there are already a few alphas on the pitch. Make a list of leaders at LFC: How many are under 30 and not Pepe Reina? 

    Lucas is 24 (!!!) years old yet already feels like a grizzled veteran. He's a major source of blood flow to our side; he's the 2nd name on the team-sheet after Pepe. He can run the middle of the park with a Paul Kagamesque ferocity. He's primed to replace Carra as the voice, Gerrard as the engine. Lucas could be the alpha dog that lights a 24 megaton firebomb up the ass of players like Adam, Henderson, Carroll, Skrtel, etc. He could be...maybe...I don't know...isn't all about attitude and confidence at this point? All the tools are there.

    Take Lucas right now and add 4 degrees of black belt tenacity with just a slice of jogo bonito...and think about how good he could/will be in the next 2-3 years. Fucking not too xabi. 

    *of course, I could be as wrong as I was when I bought three Mark Gonzalez strips*

  • Bring on Man Utd at home.  

  • The questions left by Roy Hodgeson last season, has been answered by Kenny. Now he have to answer the questions left by the performances at  Britannia Stadium and North London.

  • Neutral

    What Liverpool FC  does best?

    Kill the goose that layes the golden egg.

  • NotTooXabi

    I didn't realize anyone was having a go at John Henry's wife? 

    let me check....

  • mardia

    Completely fair to question Dalglish's choices/tactics after a loss like this. Being a loyal fan doesn't mean turning your brain off. That being said, hearing that Dalglish is getting abuse tweeted to him is part of the reason why, after bad results, I pretty much want to stay the hell away from anything football-related on the Internet until people's brains start coming back online.

    At this point, I'd be much happier if Kuyt or Maxi took over Henderson's place in the squad. Rate him as a prospect, sure, but I think he should be brought into the starting XI slowly. As for Charlie Adam...sigh. Somehow I see him being the problem child over the course of the season, as we're never going to know which Adam we get which game. (When he's good, he's very good, but when he's bad, he's horrid.)

  • Red2death

    Seems like Jordan Henderson is the next Lucas Leiva.  He has a manager who sticks by him no matter what, despite the constant confusion among fans.  I only hope he eventually gets to be that calibre (without costing us too many points in the process).  

    I'm as surprised as anyone that Dalglish would put our weakest wide man and our weakest defender on the same flank, against one of their strongest weapons Gareth Bale.  That's just asking for it.    

    In any case, we'll see what happens.  Everyone has the right to question the ideas of the manager when things go so horribly wrong (and it seems like every armchair fan out there could have done a better job).  Then again, remember that for every Jordan Henderson and Andy Carroll, there used to be a Lucas Leiva and Dirk Kuyt.

  • I understand what people are trying for with the Lucas comparisons, and as I've covered before I do quite rate Henderson as a prospect, but I have to say I'm not especially convinced: A twenty-year-old Lucas didn't arrive at Liverpool and walk into the starting eleven over proven senior alternatives—he was very much a squad player until Alonso left. As with the "bedding in" argument, it rather seems an argument against a point nobody is making.

  • Red2death

    That's true.  Lucas didn't walk into our top team.  But Rafa felt he was ready for first-team action way before most of the fans felt he was.  There was a full two seasons where Lucas and Kuyt would be among the first names on Rafa's sheet, while the majority of fans still regarded them as simply not up to par.  And I guess Dalglish feels Jordan Henderson is ready now, despite the common opinion that he's far from the finished article and definitely not good enough to start yet.  I don't know what he sees in training to justify Henderson's inclusion ahead of Maxi or Kuyt - and I don't know what Rafa saw in training to justify starting Lucas Leiva every game.  Of course now he's somewhat justified in doing it, and I just hope the same can be said of Jordan Henderson shortly.  

  • Joel

    Wholeheartedly agree with you. I certainly think Henderson is going to be a great player for us in a few years, but his game clearly hasn't fully developed yet. He has a level of technical ability that many other English players his age lack and he certainly has the mental ability to play proper football. 

    However, he sorely lacks in the defensive side of his game while playing in an attacking role. What I mean by this is that he has yet to understand how to defend higher up the pitch. His positioning deeper isn't bad, as he showed slotting in at RB briefly when Skrtel had been sent off. His problem is that he's invisible from the point at which the opponents gain possession to the point where the team is defending in their own box. He fails to press opponents on the ball but also is positionally naive in the middle third of the pitch and is easily passed around.

    Again, I'm not saying bench him until he turns 25, but with experienced, quality players like Maxi and Kuyt in the side, he should have to show he deserves a place in the 11 with his matchday contributions.

  • Red2death

    That last sentence is key.  I'm sure Henderson has shown enough quality in training that come the weekend Dalglish feels he can do the job.  Maybe he's a wonderkid in training, doing everything right and showing how he's going to become the next English legend.  But matchday is a different story.  Some players thrive on the real stage, and for others they inexplicably choke when the pressure's on - all that blistering training ground form just fails to transfer.  The step up from training ground to matchday is as big as the step up from promising U-21 to senior squad.  Just as only a portion of U-21 stars actually become good senior players, the best kids in training don't necessarily produce the best football on the real pitch.

    So, Kenny will have to find the balance of team selection based on training and matchday form.  We only see the latter, and he sees both.  Though crucially it's only matchday performances that count for anything at the end of the season.    

  • Latortillablanca

    ya i seem to remember the book on lucas from around the time ur talkin about was that he was the best player in training day in, day out, and obviously eventually he put it together on gamedays.  if its the same with hendo, then i'll happily be patient. 

  • Like you said, defeats like this eventually befall every manager and every team at some point. While the new troops bedding in and all that might be hollow, there's some substance in that Dalglish has now seen exactly how this team -- the team he has built -- can be exposed and overrun in the clearest and most painfully obvious of ways. And from that, he'll hopefully figure out how to never let it happen again.

  • Noel, your writing is so refreshingly honest.

    Comparing Adam's display at Spurs with Aquilani's stellar performance against Lazio, or Meireles defense splitting pass to Sturridge last week really leaves me feeling deflated in the knowledge that little effort wasn't made to hold onto either of them. You only have to look at how Modric played to see that holding on to a quality player can only be a good thing, and in his case really spark them into action.

    Thus, in answer to the question you already know the answer too, yes, Liverpool's midfield is weaker than it was. Pick any three of Gerrard, Aquilani, Meireles and Lucas and you have a midfield that rivals any in the top four.

    Ship those two out and replace them with Adam and Henderson and the midfield is suddenly no better than a high mid table side.

    There was no need to rip the spine of that midfield apart. The signings of both Adam and Henderson would have made sense as supplements to the squad, but their arrival as replacements is just lost on me.

    If Gerrard can't stay fit I have real concerns going into the games against Chelsea, City and United as I feel our midfield could struggle.

    In my mind, restoring Kuyt and Maxi back into the side in place of Carroll and Henderson would go along way to restoring the fluidity in attack that we saw at the end of last season, whilst bringing in Spearing for Adam (assuming Gerrard is still injured) would ensure we at least don't have a gaping hole in our midfield.

    But alas, we must move on.

  • paul

    Aquaman was never an LFC player, didn't want to be, and none of the three managers seemed to want him.  You're in fantasyland with him. There's no point in "if we kept him". He wanted out, the club wanted him gone. 

    You also forget a certain signing called Downing, one of our better players this season. Gerrard is back soon, Henderson will probably be the one to be dropped, at least until Gerrard bumps into a butterfly and takes another 6 months off.

  • I might not have mentioned Downing but I actually rate him very highly. It's hard to get all of my thoughts down about the club in one small post. In terms of our midfield being weaker, I specifically meant the centre of it.

    Sometimes I like to live in fantasy land, especially after the horrors of Sunday. In that fantasy world, Aquilani, Meireles, Gerrard, Lucas, Suarez, Kuyt and Downing are all combining to devastating effect to put four past Tottenham.

    Now I realize that in reality that will never be realized and I'm not going to dwell on it, but you can't say players like Meireles and Aquilani weren't missed at Spurs. Perhaps I'm not so concerned with letting them go, but with not having replaced them with someone of equal or greater ability.

  • Guest

    Ah yes, Maxi. A lot of folk piss and moan how Maxi "plays too narrow" and "provides no width." However, his cutting inside (1.) aids the holding midfielders, giving them someone to play one touch with, allowing the team to keep possession and put the opposition on its back heel, (2.) allows space on the pitch for the left fullback to gallop into, and we actually have one now with Enrique, and (3.) gives us another intelligent threat in the final third, as demonstrated by two hat-tricks last year. But point #1 is the most important to me, as I didn't really see a team yesterday that was capable of maintaining possession for any length of time, even before the Adam red card.

    As for Kuyt, all I can say is that Rafa always put his name first on his team sheets, and I politely suggest that Mr. Dalglish would do likewise.

  • Roland Ejiogu

    Type your comment here.
    I agree with LukasLeaiva21, but need to say that (for me) Andy Carol was the biggest flop of the day.  There is no difference in his sluggish movements now and when he just was adjudged as recovering from injury.  When i saw his name on the team sheet, i prayed for a miracle to happen for him to put up an average performance.  But i guess it was same old story.  He slows down the whole team, whereas Kuyt energises the team with his movements.  Daglish should spare us the anguish.

  • Guest

    I usually defend Andy, but yes, I've sort of accepted that this squad is better served with Suarez as a false nine and Andy on the bench. 

  • JPR

    Yea. Let's go with Maxi and Kuyt. Could you see either of those guys be that far off the pace in the midfiled or come close to getting a second yellow from a mistimed tackle after a soft first yellow. Maybe we'll get them at Brighton on Wednesday and we can all see how good they are/will be. (Charlies out for a game, right?) Then maybe we can get them for Wolves. Dirki will always give us that two for one energizer routine. Charlie is just too lost when he has to go up against a pacey quality midfield, like Spurs. And easily countered when closed down for time and space. 

  • Guest

    Well once Stevie is back I think we'll see a Lucas-Gerrard partnership, with Adam on the bench. Maybe.

  • Red2death

    Regarding the departures of Aquilani and Meireles, it seems like Kenny is trying to build up the bootroom spirit and he will not tolerate anyone who doesn't want to be at the club.  Sure, Aquliani and Meireles are both professionals and would have played well anyway if put on the pitch, but it'd be detrimental to his long term team-building.  So, he's decided that he'll prize dedication to the club over everything, even if it means having a weaker midfield.  That's his calculated decision and we'll just live with the consequences of it - good or bad.

    On the rest, I completely agree with you.  It's very confusing that he seems to be buying squad players for the future, but forcing them into the starting eleven now, even when they don't perform.  Contrast with (I hate to say it) Utd, where Chicharito only gets the nod because he's been scoring consistently, Ashley Young only starts because he's actually made the side better, and Berbatov can be dropped for an entire season regardless that he cost 30m.  

    Yup, we move on.  Kenny knows a thing or two about winning titles, so hopefully he knows what he's doing this time too...

  • Geoff Twentyman

    @Red2death & paul re Meireles and Aquilani.@CheekyFellow:disqus 
    You are both right. If the players don't want to be here, then move them on. I think the point is their quality asn't been replaced. Its al very well shipping Aqualiani out on loan and not seeing the value in Mierele's double your money contract, but they have to be replaced with equal if not greater quality - Adam hasn't proved he is equal let alone better & Hendo is a prospect who shouldn't be expecetd to be equal or better quality.

    @Red2death - its interesting that AF can keep Berbatov benched, but there's all sorts of comment at Carroll not being in the starting XI! Similar money & all that.

  • JPR

    Not only can SAF keep Berbatov benched but he can keep him "locker roomed" for the CL final against Barca in preference of having Owen on the bench. Not too much said about it, although Berba was not particularly thrilled. But, he's back and closed mouth about it.
    We'll replace Meireles with the $12 million pounds we got, if KK sees the need (and who doesn't). But it was a little unexpected and happened on August 31, transfer deadline day. And if there is any expectation of us reaching CL spots (I'm not holding my breath) we'll be able to get better quality. But, he'll assess needs in Jan. obviously.
    Aquilani was a quality creative mid that would have worked well with Gerrard especially but was not the type to be able to "take over" a game. And he was only having Italy. We should be looking for Diego Maradona (alpha male as Xabi says above). The next Maradona anyway.  

  • Geoff Twentyman

    To talk transfers is always a horrible thing to do on these posts as it encourages all sorts, but for me theres a level of simple 'possession based' creativity missing.

    If we could use the Meireles money and go for someone like Moutinho for example; I think that style of player would be complimentary to our style&existing personnel and could be a ready made player to walk straight in to the team.

    Looking at younger players, someone like Javi Martinez I feel would be a good fit for the English game and maybe Ever Banega? Someone like Gundogen might also be the playmaking style of midfielder we need to partner Lucas, but he would be a bit of a gamble he's only in his 2nd seson in the Budesliga.

  • paul

    The Spuds would have given us a good thrashing had we packed the midfield with the entire population of L4, their friends, and their dogs.

    There are no scapegoats, or what-ifs. We were rubbish against a side where it all clicked together. It happens.

    Let's see how we do in the league cup. The big names have some face saving to do.

  • Joel

    Questions, questions, questions. The big one for me is whether Kenny will take what he's learned about the side from these last two matches and use it to improve the team moving on. Kenny's ineffective (or non-existent) use of substitutions this last week was my major gripe, albeit one which can easily be remedied. 

    However, I think we're going to suffer from a case of unreasonably high expectations this season. While our squad is certainly a massive improvement on previous years, we're not going to be challenging for the title this season. Our buys this summer were clearly focused on building a team for the next few years, yet many were adamant that we'd finish above both Manchester sides and Chelsea. 

    Finally, I'd like to (semi) echo/expand on Noel's point on questioning Kenny and blind faith. There's a much broader line between questioning tactics and other managerial decisions and full fledged abuse than many seem to see. In fact, blind faith and abuse are much closer to each other than reasoned questioning is to either.

  • just_incredible

    I'd certainly like to think that Kenny and the boys have plenty to learn from this tough hiding that would only serve to improve their performances and how we are set up to deal with future opponents.

    Of course, this has to be shown on the pitch and I hope they will. In the event that it doesn't happen, it only serves as fodder for more questions and rightly so too. 

    Brighton next would be a good gauge of how the team responds in general.

  • Ed

    "Blind faith and abuse are much closer to each other than reasoned questioning is to either."

    That's pretty fantastic, Joel.

  • CheekyFellow

    Why don't you guys just get a room?

  • Ed

    Well technically this room is mine, or at least partially mine.

  • NotTooXabi

    Wouldn't that be a dungeon, Cheeky? 

    "Blind Faith and Abuse" ... a better title for Wegner's biography you will not get.

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