Acceptance and Andy Carroll

By: Noel | December 6th, 2011

David N’gog, born April 1st, 1989, turned 22 earlier this year. Andy Carroll, born January 6th, 1989, also turned 22 earlier this year. Last season with Liverpool, N’gog started nine matches in the league and made a further 16 substitute appearances, playing a total of 1057 minutes. He scored twice, once every 529 minutes—or roughly once every six games. He registered a shot every 42 minutes, hit the goal 52% of the time, and converted 8% of his chances. Hardly stunning numbers by any measure, but then there was a reason most saw him as a promising backup at best and not the man to lead Liverpool’s line in the present, while even those who thought of him as a promising youngster acknowledged he would likely need a great deal of playing time if he was to ever fulfill that promise—something Liverpool, struggling to remain in European competition and looking to perhaps even crack the top four, could hardly afford to give him.

By comparison, in nearly a year with Liverpool Andy Carroll has started 13 times in the league, made a further 12 appearances off the bench, and played a total of 1172 minutes. His scoring record is significantly better than N’gog’s if hardly stunning, with four league goals to his name in that time—one every 293 minutes. He has registered a shot every 27 minutes, is on target 42% of the time, and converts 9% of his chances into goals. Better numbers for the most part to be sure, but hardly ones to set the Premier League alight and separate him from the slightly younger striker Liverpool shipped to Bolton over the summer.

It does have to be mentioned, too, that last season saw N’gog’s production dip, his development appearing to stagnate after a more promising 2009-10 season. That year, N’gog played 1013 minutes, scored five times—once every 203 minutes—registered a shot every 32 minutes, and had a much more promising chance conversion rate of 16%. If Andy Carroll’s return to date is markedly better than N’gog’s in his final season at the club, it is inescapable too that N’gog’s return as a 20-year-old was superior to anything Carroll seems likely to contribute by the time his 23rd birthday rolls around early in the new year.

Of course, just as digging deeper into N’gog’s past paints a prettier picture than what is found in more recent history, looking back to Carroll’s time at Newcastle shows a more promising player than the one Liverpool has so far seen. Yet Carroll has spent nearly an entire calendar year at Lieverpool now, and even if one accepts the argument that he not be judged based solely on his inflated pricetag it would be far from unfair to suggest that he was bought with the expectation that he had considerably more upside—and could contribute considerably more in the present—than a bargain French youth international picked up for £1.5M. And for all the protests many may make that Carroll cannot be judged on that transfer fee, if at the end of the day N’gog wasn’t good enough to make a difference for the club at the time then neither, it would seem, is Carroll in the here and now. Which makes for an uncomfortable reality where the only good reason to continue giving him starting opportunities most seemed to agree N’gog didn’t warrant is that transfer fee.

*

Most have sought to point out that Carroll has worked hard when he’s been on the pitch this season, yet hard work and a markedly better return wasn’t enough to secure N’gog starting minutes in 2009-10 except when others were injured. Moreover, it’s not simply a lack of production in front of goal that’s raising justified doubts about whether Carroll has the ability to fit in at Liverpool eleven months after he arrived. Against Fulham, given the chance to impress ahead of proven alternatives like Maxi Rodriguez and Dirk Kuyt, Carroll’s lack of movement not only spoke to one of the player’s biggest weaknesses but also hindered teammates Luis Suarez and Craig Bellamy. That lack of movement, an inability to quickly read and exploit space, prevented the three most advanced players from interchanging freely to capitalise on the biggest weakness of Fulham’s towering centre back pair. It also pushed Suarez into a more peripheral position on the wing after consistently being Liverpool’s most dangerous central attacker since his arrival days before Carroll in last January’s transfer window.

Many continue to complain when Carroll’s uninspiring return to date is brought up, but suggesting that Carroll can’t be questioned because he’s young or works hard is nothing but a straw man argument—after all, nobody is suggesting that he doesn’t work hard or mightn’t one day develop into an effective target-man. And regardless of whether he might one day develop into a player who can make an impact at the highest level, such arguments have no relevance when determining if he in fact offers the club its best chance to secure points in the present—and to maybe then get back into the top four and a Champions League berth, which has to be the primary goal for Liverpool this season.

Saying he needs to play to improve is all well and good, but worrying about turning Carroll into the beast everybody still hopes he can become in time to make a run at the league title in 2013 isn’t a valid reason for playing him today. Not when there are players in the squad who give the club a better chance of reaching the top four this season. Not when nothing but reaching that goal should really, truly matter. And from that standpoint, even if Carroll were to come on strong towards the end of the season, it’s hard to imagine he would give the squad so much more at that point that it would justify the harm it does playing him in place of players like Maxi and Kuyt right now.

*

As always when discussing Carroll, there seems a need to partake in lengthy disclaimers, pointing out that criticism doesn’t equal blanket condemnation—at least for Carroll himself, who surely hasn’t chosen to under-perform regardless of pricetag, and who based on the promise he showed at Newcastle may still, one day, develop into a useful player. Certainly it wasn’t Carroll who decided the perfect time for a return to the starting eleven was when Liverpool came up against two strong, slow, towering central defenders in Fulham’s Hangeland and Senderos, the sorts of players perfectly suited to negating the Englishman but who have in the past shown themselves vulnerable to smaller, quicker opponents able to interchange and exploit space. And from that point of view, after the wise tactics on display against the likes of Chelsea, Manchester United, and Manchester City, throwing Carroll into a game for which even his staunchest defenders would likely have considered him poorly suited speaks to the coaching staff approaching Fulham as an easy game. A game where they could afford to give Carroll a run to aid in his development, even if it made no tactical sense, instead of worrying only about getting the three points.

If Liverpool had won, of course, the talking points might have been different, yet regardless of the results it cannot be ignored that Carroll remains a tentative figure, worlds away even from the unpolished bull often seen at Newcastle. Certainly he is still young, and perhaps one day he will regain that lost edge while developing a newfound ability to create and exploit space in the attacking third, but for all his hard work in recent weeks he remains a player far from able to make a consistent impact at a club fighting for its future in the Champions League. It may not be Carroll’s fault, and certainly he doesn’t deserve to come in for much of the abuse he has begun to receive, but inflated fee or not he simply doesn’t give the club its best chance at victory against most opponents right now. And right now, worrying about developing the player into what everybody still hopes he may one day become at the expense of results in the present is not a luxury that Kenny Dalglish and the coaching staff can afford.

Some Related Liverpool Posts:

Category: Champions League, Europa League, Miscellaneous, Premier League, Team News

« Fulham 1, Liverpool 0: No Luck, No Finishing, No Fun | Home | Some Day, in Some Way, Luis Suarez Has to Pay »

purify_the_body

I finally was able to watch the game again, and Carroll's performance didn't get any better. From the first minute he was out of sync with his teammates, as Suarez instinctively played a ball into space that he refused to run into. Not good.

At another point Johnson and Bellamy(?) sprinted forward with the ball, and instead of eagerly joining them in the attack, he just kind of drifted off, like a slow kid who can't keep up. Then when we lost the ball, he tried retreating back to cover for the Johnson at right back.

He's just so clueless. We thought we were buying a wrecking ball and got a nerf ball. Damn!
Kiril

Yes finally we are all in agreement on the curious case of Andy Carroll. The most important goal for teh club right now is to finish in the top 4, and Carroll is not part of that goal. And I would like tevez at Liverpool too. But he did play for united, and he's got attitude problems. I'd much prefer balotelli..
Trevor Maine

I think this is a pretty gross misconstrual of the situation at Anfield. Here are some stats that might also have been helpful.

This season (and you really must take his figures from last season with a grain of salt, because he was injured and moving into a new system) Carroll has scored 2 goals on 32 shots, putting 16 on target, in 13 appearances (950ish minutes). Suarez, who has seen literally 4.5 full games worth of playing time more than Carroll (1350 minutes) has scored just 4 times with one assist over that same span (70 SH, 25 SOG =37%).
Carroll, Downing, and Suarez are never going to be the trio they should be until they start playing together regularly.
Purify_the_body

What are the stats on Carroll falling down per minute of play?
DJ-Chutfield

I am commenting mostly because at the time of writing, the number of comments is 35; nothing in the world irritates me more than being reminded of that number, so let's take it up to 36, shall we?

I agree with the general consensus of the comments. Yes, Johnny is right in saying the lads need playing time together in order to form a cohesive unit, but there is a time and a place for development. There's a reason hospital interns change urine bags and draw blood, leaving open heart surgery to the real doctors.

Back in the days of Shanks, new players had to prove their worth by playing in the reserves! I know that's not exactly doable these days, but we have to keep our priorities straight. The top goal of this season is to crack the Top 4. We can't be sacrificing points and fielding players who are still learning how to count by 2's and tie their shoes in massively important league games if winning every single league game is our BIGGEST priority this season (which, as we've already established, it is). As Fulham just proved that there are no easy games. League matches are no time for development or experimentation. They are serious business, the strongest possible side should be fielded every damn time.

Let them prove their worth in training, in the cups and whatever mid-season meaningless friendly 2012 has in store for us. Leave the open-heart surgery for the big boys.
Suarez from the car park...

Thumbs up - lets just ban the number 35 from the vocabulary altogether. Think of an Apple name for it and then it will seem like a must have. Call it Carroll's iFee perhaps?

Carroll fluffed an opportunity the other night. Suarez crossed it from the left touch line to the edge of the 6 yard box, and Carroll just edged out the impressive Hangeland to run onto the shot with Hangers getting a fractionally late challenge in.
Problem was he fluffed the shot. Didn't make proper contact otherwise it looked like a near certain goal.

That kind of sharpness comes from playing the games, not the training pitch, where he must perform otherwise he wouldn't be considered.
I'm trusting that he's not far from that sharpness, though by January, if he's played regularly, I might have to reconsider.

Not playing Carroll will just send his subconscious the wrong message, but we can still leave him out in the big games. Like I say, the last 8 games of the season is NOT the time to try him. The loss was determined by the ref I thought, not because of Carroll.

If we really want to not play him then we should send him out on loan. He has to play.
DJ-Chutfield

Yes, we should leave him out of the big games. This season, no league game is non-big. Mid-table sides cannot be taken lightly, not even newly promoted sides, as Swansea and Norwich proved. Hell, even Blackpool did the double on us before plunging back down to the Championship last year. He has to play, yes. Let him be a nailed-on starter for every cup match. Once he hits a vein of form or a couple hat-tricks there, then he can come back into the league. But this stretch can make or break our season.

"Easy" games have been Liverpool's hard games in recent history. I'm honestly not too worried about City away and Chelsea at home as I am about Wigan away and Blackburn at home. I'm fairly confident the lads can get the points from the other "Top Six," but if we can't get three points (or even 1, for fuck's sake), fourth place is simply gone. Out of reach. His dreaded price tag probably prohibits a loan move, but shit. Surely his ego can take leading Liverpool's FA Cup assault.
nezi

very well said chutfield
Noel

See, again, I'm starting to develop a major problem with people looking to ban the number 35, because as I touched on in the piece, if the number was 3.5 instead then nobody would be this damn invested in him having to play often so he could develop/come good/whatever. I bet if the number was 3.5 everybody would be as happy to see him on the bench as N'gog in 2009-10, who as I conventiently pointed out in fact had superior numbers that year. If there's no 35, then there's no reason not to leave his ass nailed to the bench except when the game is won or against lower league sides in the cup competitions. If there's no 35, then half the internet isn't worried about his psyche being permanently damaged if he doesn't play enough. The people who seem to care most that he cost £35M are the people saying, "He has to play! And stop mentioning that he cost £35M!"
Purify_the_body

Excellent comment. Unfortunately, with such a huge opportunity cost, no one will forget about the '35m' for quite a while. What problem do we have that we couldn't fix if we only had that 35m back that we wasted on Carroll? etc.
Suarez from the car park...

See, it's not his iFee that's the issue, it's that he has the potential to smash them in by head or by peg.

A bit more sharpness and he's scoring. that is worth fighting for this side of 2012.
AugusteBalls

The gamble on Carroll is a big one and not one worth taking, IMHO. No other top team would stand for it. Torres cost more but AVB won't start him. Why? Because he can't score at the moment. Last year is irrelevant. If we don't make a top 4 position, other top players won't want to join and the good ones we do have will leave, including Lucas; he is being held up as the poster boy for perseverance, but just because he improved doesn't mean Andy will and we didn't win anything during this "development" time anyways. The temptation for greener pastures will be too great, and who could blame him? Mourinho dropped Shevchenko. SAF did it to Berbatov, and they were in a stronger position than we are. We need pragmatic and emotionless leadership. Start him in the league and FA cups and if steps up his game, then take a chance in a league game.
Suarez from the car park...

If you think he has a role at the club, he must be played this half of the season. December is a critical time for him and he must be played regularly.

Get him playing regularly, increase his sharpness. We won't want to do it in the 14 games against Citeh et al in Jan/Feb, and we won't want to do it during the run in during March and April.

If his sharpness increases over the next half dozen games, he becomes a very useful sub in the big games to follow and the season run in. Otherwise loan him out or sell him.
nezi

jonny will you please choose one??. Increase andy's sharpness or make top four this season. You cant have both!
Purify_the_body

No, the situation is more fluid than "play him now or sell". He could easily be benched this season and brought back next season once the pressure's off. There's nothing that says we 'must' play him immediately other than emotional reasoning.

You may think it's a good idea because you believe he'll suddenly come good, which is fine, but I'd rather first sort out Suarez, who is the top player for our club and also not scoring.Honestly, December's not any more critical than any other time. We will always need points, bottom line. And personally, I'd rather work on one project at a time. With Adam and Henderson settling in a bit, next up in my list would be Downing, who is more proven and likely to come good sooner.
Suarez from the car park...

There is a problem with bringing in too many players at once. It's far easier and much more successful for a couple of players to come in and fit into an existing system.

We haven't done that. I think it's because of the age of many of our seniors many of whom FSG likely don't want to extend next summer when they're into their final contract year and so may well move on.

It doesn't mean Carroll has to play, but they want to know if he can contribute yet, or do they have to buy another striker and what sort/age by next summer.

We know he can be effective, so the challenge is really to get him back to that, a bit more sharpness and he's on the score sheet. It's not emotional, it's about getting him back to that Citeh game last season. He is much better than we are seeing.

These games against lower league sides is tailor made for that, not the games against Citeh or the big boys in February, and not in the season run in when there really is no time to recover lost points, so I have to disagree with you there.

We could rotate betwen Suarez/Kuyt/Bellamy to get a scoring pattern going with hopefully someone on form each game, with the usual candidates rotating on the wings, and I think we'll be doing that come Newcastle end of Dec and into January/February with the big games, but I'm not convinced we're losing points because Carroll is playing. The others aren't scoring enough to say that.

Players other than Carroll look reasonably sharp and do their jobs ok, just don't score. It's not like each of them has to play centre forward to see if they can score. For them it's somehow dealing with their finishing which frankly doesn't scream for us to play them. Kenny is rotating them trying to get it to work.

For Carroll it's about his sharpness and that needs playing time. It's not like he's getting all the playing time anyhow. Are you saying he should only start from the bench? I can't agree with that, and it's not emotional.
purify_the_body

What I'm saying is it's perfectly fine to not play him, to not feel you must play him or sell him with no inbetween. The best thing to do is recognize he's not in form, put out our first 11 without him, get them playing their best and taking points, then work in Carroll when he's ready.

It doesn't matter if he has to wait until next August until he's ready. There's no hurry.
Suarez from the car park...

as Ive already bored people silly about, did we lose because of Andy yesterday?

The officials had an awful game. Reina fumbled.

Senderos should have had 3/4 yellow cards. He should have conceded a penalty. Suarez' brilliant goal should have stood. That's the game as it happened, and I can't remember one where the officials had such a large impact on the outcome, yet it's barely been mentioned.

Add Reina's fumbles all night and it completes the picture.

Andy may not have had a great game, but he didn't lose it for us.

As for tactics, those Fulham defenders are huge, and clearly had his number all night. He at least tied a couple of them up while the others worked the area, but Fulham parked the bus and packed the defence (with a strong covering midfield). They looked huge and compact last night.

Andy didn't make the most of his few opportunities, but neither did anyone else except Suarez.

The plan is clearly to play him and the new boys against lower league sides to get them working correctly. It's tough to watch and brave to do. If it comes good for the run in at the end of the season then it will have been worthwhile.

December is a run of lower league sides and if not now, then when? Is anyone seriously suggesting the last 8 games of the season as an option for getting these guys to work together?

I'm not sure FSG want to extend some if any senior contracts next summer due to age so I'm sure some of them will move on as they all will have one year left on their contracts except Gerrard.

If the newbies don't develop FSG may be forced to extend them or buy more experienced/expensive replacements than they are perhaps intending to do. It's all about planning the summer transfer window.

Finishing is an issue with our whole squad, and that's what the debate and analysis needs to be about.

One other perspective is that of half a dozen or so new players for the 1st team, are we saying that Andy is the one that may not work out [quickly enough]? If so, doesn't that actually lie within the bounds of the law of averages? Personally I wouldn't have bought him, even though I thought he would be/was better than this (last year's game against Citeh?) purely because of the mobility factor.

I would have tried to get Peter Odemwingie, a tricky, mobile forwards with a good shot on him, but we MUST give Andy pitch time and service him properly, and do it asap. He got limited service last night because the defence was so packed more than anything.

One thing I have no doubt about, is if the end of the season run in sees us up against it, the selection will be pretty ruthless - as it has been against the big teams.
Latortillablanca

i wudnt mind either of the west brom strikers in our rotation... that boy shane long is a gamer...
Purify_the_body

I dunno...what's so wrong with picking the best player at each position every game? Furthermore, what's so wrong about buying another striker for 20m and selling Carroll on for 15m at the end of next season if he hasn't shown enough as a sub/backup?

And who the hell are you sleeping with at Disqus to get that many perfect line breaks??
Suarez from the car park...

lol, it's not what you know, it's who you know! Never mind the size, just grab the damn thing etc etc

Submit -> edit -> add line breaks. General rule for writing so you don't waste time formatting while you're writing (world according to me).
Purify_the_body

Edit? What? Disqus has options?

I guess I need to start logging in instead of 'posting as'. Thanks!
purify_the_body

xxx

Reina

oh yay
Suarez from the car park...

hilarious!

It was about 3 months before I found the quick current tv guide on my Pioneer tv rather than the full EPG which replaces the whole screen.

Man, for the next couple of days, using that was better than sex.
poorscouserbobby

*For the anti-whomever-it-is-this-week-group"

Don't forget when we were screaming "GET LUCAS OFF THE PITCH!" I know
that there were times in the past were Lucas was garbage... Well and
truly garbage, poorscouserbobby is better than me garbage. Things take
time to achieve excellence, fine wine, bourbon and 17 year old Italian girls.
(kidding...mostly). He has progressed into one of the best holding
midfielders in the league, if not the best. That was under Rafa, through the
dark ages, and now under the King. IMAGINE my friends, what the big lug is capable of achieving, now the same for Henderson, and even Downing. Yes hard work has played a large role in how Lucas has advanced, and will for Carroll should he realize his potential. The King has said, he'll get rid of anyone who's not up to the challenge. If Carroll doesn't give what Kenny needs, he'll be gone. 2.5 seasons from now (he will be 25) if he has not improved drastically, he will be gone, and will be able to point to me and say, WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH MAY WE BURN HIM!?! Sorry, side tracked, the point is give the boy more than half a chance. Name me one person who at the age of 21 joined up with one of the biggest clubs in the world, and was able to step up into the team and be a phenom. Educate me. Christiano Ronaldo, someone we can all agree has immense talent, (and all generally dislike) did not score 40+ goals in his first season, nor his second.. Do I think Andy Carroll will ever score more than 20 league goals in the season? No. Is he capable of it? Sure. If by New Years Day 2014 Andy Carroll has not improved drastically or gone away to parts unknown, I'll drink lots of bourbon and say, "Andy Carroll was, is, and shall always be Garbage"
Tony

You don't pay 35 million big ones for his potential.
Latortillablanca

but under that logic no one should be talking about the 50m it will take to prize neymar away from brazil... wat has he done exactly? nothing really, except be the next in a long line of 'new pele's'. is it worth the 50m gamble though? you bet your bunda, it is...
Tony

Those who are interested in Neymar would be Barca, Real, and Chelsea. Unfortunately LFC has a budget.
poorscouserbobby

I can agree with that sentiment, but I'm not sure Mike Ashley will give us much of a refund.
Tony

Haha, we wouldn't give a refund to Roman either...
Suarez from the car park...

you're right, you don't pay £35m for potential, but last January was complex, we were about to be labelled a feeder club where europe was to remain a memory.
FSG weren't going to let that happen, so they constructed the deal so that AC's price was irrelevant, and instantly any idea of lfc not having ambition went out of the window.

I still believe that we didn't get our first choices.
Red2death

Fair. You can't expect him to suddenly become a Liverpool legend. He needs time. But let him have that time in training, not when points are at stake, no?

Right now I'd put Carroll in the same category as Michael Ngoo, Suso, Raheem Sterling, Conor Coady. Slightly senior to them but playing at about the same level. Any one of them has bags of potential to become a great player, but they need time to develop - and that's precisely why they're not played when it counts - yet. They develop on the training ground, in friendlies, in early cup rounds, whenever Liverpool can risk fielding a weaker team for the sake of developing talent. Give them every opportunity possible. But when points and a CL spot are at stake, we have our regular guys who can secure them.

Just because Andy Carroll used to be a nailed-on starter at Newcastle doesn't mean he's necessarily any better than the boys who've been at Liverpool since early teens. They're all great prospects, Carroll especially, and all need time to develop, which we're happy to give. And one day they'll be performing at a high enough level to wear that red jersey and do the job for Liverpool - but not today, and that's the point.
poorscouserbobby

If you ever wanted a reason to not buy FIFA 12... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Mike

If he starts scoring like that he can kiss whoever he wants for I care...
redtrev73

Gotta tell ya Bobby...I'd have slept a WHOOOOLE lot sounder without that image in my noggin....yeeeeesh!
Suarez from the car park...

scarey. Also shows Carroll running as fast as presumably Suarez!!
Latortillablanca

homie just brought lumber, lighter fluid and matches to a pyromaniac's anonymous meeting... haters follow the light!!

all kidding aside, i understand a lot of the carroll discontent, and most of the above points and even ish PTB constantly drops are unavoidable (shocking, i know). but all this is going to lead to further ridiculous hyperbolic jargon that chaps my ass worse than no sunblock at a nudist beach (shocking, i know). so lemme jus get this general (not directed at anyone in particular) stuff off my chest before all that BS hits...

if you even think of standing up for 9 or 19 (or adam and hendo before him) you end up having to go all the way to the extreme other side just to try and maintain a line, and its the line that says "This is LFC, the club where you support the men wearing the red shirts not because it's the fastest way to titles or the quickest reward or the best way to avoid disappointment as a fan. YNWA, remember? this is the club of agony and paying dues for the unimaginable joy that is deservedly ours."

all year, all the new signings have been worthless wastes of money, except for enrique. then hendo shows something and he gets a pass, but only 'cuz he's young'. adam versus citeh and chelski? maybe he does offer something, we've 'been a bit harsh'. then the first game in which he doesn't produce an assist? we're back to the 'without lucas, he's shit, bring back aquilani' bs.

and downing and carroll. both lacking in confidence, both working their asses off, no luck. but what do u hear? miserable wastes of space the both of them, they should be firmly planted on the bench to allow us to go on our guaranteed run of flawless wins, and then once we've sealed champions league qualification we should sell them and at least recoup some of our wasted cash.

well, it doesn't necessarily work that way, folks. u can't just buy two new players, sell them on being cornerstones of the new LFC revolution and not try to incorporate them into the side. and when the going gets rough? guess what, that's when you work even harder and support them even more to get them through their rut. carroll hadn't played meaningful minutes in the league in 3-4 games, so you give him a game. if u win and he scores it cud open the floodgates. if u lose and he doesnt, well it happens - its professional sport. i can agree that maybe the coaches cuda chosen a better game or formation or whatever, but i can't agree that carroll shud be relegated to the bench until he miraculously figures it out through copious meditation.

we've got over 2/3s of our games to go, we can overcome disappointing results. but a lot of the insinuation - or flat out statements in some cases - are essentially that these two guys will contribute squat all season and are basically finished as liverpool players. Really? 3 months in? What if someone had looked at you 3 months in, "well, he's no good at all, is he? can't talk, can't walk, shits himself - he's HOPELESS!!!!"

listen, long may maxi and bellamy score and create goals for us, and be good influences on the squad, but neither of those guys are physically capable of being the week in, week out go-to lynchpins anymore - so stop asking for them to be the week in, week out, go-to lynchpins... the guys that actually are capable of doing so need to improve, that's obvious, but jesus christ, is it really that hard to afford some of that undying support to the new, expensive, british, and young guard?

k, i feel much better now.
nezi

i suppose we now understand whats going through kennys head. Either Play maxi, bellamy, suarez, kuyt and win the game but loose carrol or play carrol and risk loosing the game but gain giving him valuable game time. .. I would go with play the best team until one of them gets injured then put in carrol or play the best team until you have won the game then put in carrol in the last 60-75 minutes for game expirience.... maxi must be laughing at himself whenever he sees carrol being chosen ahead of him.
Mike

Well said mate, cheers..
Neb

Couldn't agree with you more..So much so that I can't think of anything more to add.
Red2death

At the risk of sounding like a typical Andy-basher (which I'm not if you read my other posts) - I'm all for giving him time to incorporate into the team. Thing is, these guys train 6 days a week and only on the 6th day are there any actual points at stake. So, by all means train and play and build up confidence and refine the formation every week Monday through Friday for however long it takes. He's 22 and we have time. But for goodness' sake for one day a week, the only day that matters in terms of the league table, pick the players that have the greatest chance of securing the points.

Training and real matches different? Yes. But is it worth paying in points for? No.
nezi

thats right.. whats the point of developing andy as a player when we wont make european football... loosing out on champions league might make players like suarez, kuyt and maxi go to other clubs.
Latortillablanca

ya, but here is where i agree with johnny - you can't hang that fulham result on andy anymore than you can hang it on pepe or spearo...
Redtrev73

Well in lad.
df

Hey lads any chance of a bit of video comparison of the big greasy fucker doing the business for Newcastle and him and his pony tail not doing much for us!
Noel

Know there was one comp that showed his Newcastle goals floating around when he signed, but that's not going to add a whole lot to proceedings at this point and it'd be nearly impossible to get ahold of footage of their games from last fall. Certainly would make for interesting viewing, but I'm not sure it's especially possible—and a quick look doesn't turn up any surviving every-touch comps of his pre-Liverpool, assuming they ever existed.
Tony

try youtube andy carroll newcastle
Purify_the_body

If Carroll had been exactly as he is so far, but other players like Suarez, Adam, and Bellamy had scored enough goals for us to win, we'd be thriving and looking at Carroll as a bonus. But the whole team has failed to score, and Carroll is carrying an extra share of that burden not just because of the price tag, but because his performances do not inspire confidence.Think about it: yesterday Suarez hit one awful shot into the stands. It was a really poor effort. Yet Suarez has built up enough credibility with his previous performances that fans ignore that as a one-off or unlucky try even without scoring many goals. But Carroll often falls down, generally looks clumsy and off the pace, rarely shows control or intelligence of movement, almost never looks dangerous or lively. In addition to poor production, he doesn't inspire or entertain.

I think a lot of us can accept Andy Carroll has not been very good. The bigger problem is accepting the poor results that are attached to that and the idea that he is getting preferential treatment. He should earn his place in the side.
Waiting for Sterling

This is exactly the way I'm thinking.

A good counter argument would be that players that can score and take the load off Carroll aren't playing enough. But we have Suarez, Adam and Hendo on the field. All capable of creating chances and with 3 strikers starting you would hope that one of them can hit a couple in the net.

Bottom line is the only player in form is Maxi and although he's very skillful, he just lacks the young age and a bit of pace. He knows where to be and how to pass, but players like Andy Carroll and Bellamy bring to the game more than just positioning. Yes, I said Andy knows positioning. Andy brings in height and Craigy brings in pace. If Carroll knocked in the good crosses he got from Suarez in this past game we'd all be looking a bit more positive. I think that, and that FSG think that this club needs a lot of time to gel. Everything has changed. The way we go about playing AND SCORING has changed. We don't have the one who shall remain unnamed playing for us anymore. That guy knew how to make a goal out of nothing. What we do got is Suarez and Carroll, two totally different players, but when put together come about what that guy we used to have possessed.

I say two heads are better than one and if those two heads are out of form Suarez and Carroll than I'm more than happy to give them more time to feel each other out.

Althoughhhhhh, I think that if we get a striker like Soldado or just a finisher in general, that competition for first XI will maybe step up Andy's progression. Andy feels all the pressure and guess what? No one is behind him in the pecking order for his spot. Kuyt and Bellamy may have a yell, but we have no true number 9 behind the big guy. Maybe one of those can get us going again.
Purify_the_body

(pretends comment about Carroll & positioning never happened)

The nice thing about getting Soldado would be that we would be set at striker and could just go back to stressing about how bad our midfield is.
Ryan

Why can't he just...be Yakubu? Did he see that game against Swansea? Why does the ball never fall to Carroll like that? damn pass n move...
redtrev73

Fair analysis and pretty much sums up the quandry of 'what to do with Andy Carroll?' I'm not one of those that wants to package the lad up and post him back to Fat Mike Ashley but then I'm also just about at my elastic limit when it comes to our profligacy in front of goal...and sadly, Andy is a major culprit here.

I'm loath to say that two football men as successful and experienced as Kenny and Clarkey would have seen the game at Craven Cottage as "easy", especially with Lucas AND Gerrard AWOL. Most probably it was a combination of belief in that system and personnel and eagerness to get an expensive asset performing at his peak. This is understandable but jars with those of us who can't see why Maxi and Kuyt didn't start last night.

After a spell on the edges Hendo came in and was strong, as was Jay, to an extent. No doubt Kenny had hoped Carroll would make it a hat-trick of effective performances but alas, this did not materialise. The kid is bursting a gut but still looks laboured and tentative and his touch is very heavy. I would suggest that ALL of these issues would be resolved with a few goals and a surge of confidence. I would also suggest the kid returns to the bench for now......

And for the record...Disqus? ...the fuck??
Ryan

I know, its DISQUSTING

oooooooh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Parkje04

Ok I'm going crazy here - is it just me, or does Disqus look different again? The font is bigger than the previous post you guys put up. Am I the only one this is happening to?

Sorry for the unrelated response, but it has been driving me mad for about a week.
Ed

Disqus is fucked.
Purify_the_body

This post is about acceptance. We will let the Disqus formatting pass through us, unjudged, unharmed.

ohmmmmmm
Latortillablanca

disqus is actually just an extravagent marketing ploy for the 4th installment of paranormal activity. u shud see the things it does whilst your asleep...
Noel

This is what it was like last week, then it changed format for a bit yesterday, and now it's... like this again. Or, you're probably not going crazy here, and Disqus is a horrible, horrible platform.
Luis Suarez dentist

You have just explained my argument against the Buy British policy.

Carroll £35 million - Ngog £1.5 million
Downing (no goals, no assists) £20 million - Maxi - Free
Henderson £14-16 million - Ozil £10 million

Of course these are extreme examples, but the fact remains that if you buy British you pay a lot, lot more for a lot, lot less.
Trevor Maine

I think that in the case of the first two, the players' nationality is largely moot. After all, they weren't bought because they were British. Carroll was bought because he added depth to the strike force and because he could bring long balls from the midfield down and to the feet of strikers. Downing was brought in as a complement to that talent--last year he was the Premier League's most dangerous crosser.

The real problem is that Dalgleish has drastically changed his tactics from last season, when Carroll's signing looked like it would initially be very successful (despite the fact that he was carrying an injury). He's changed formations completely, now preferring a 1 striker set and service up the gut of the midfield from the likes of Charlie Adam.Adam, I'd say, despite his smaller price tag, hasn't deserved many of the starts he's been given.
jpr

Looks like Tevez will be going to Milan on loan this year and then be purchased from City and sign a 3 year deal. (Transfer option conditions not disclosed) Salary is rumored to be approx. $6.7 mil dollars per year (about 80,000 pounds a week). Transfer fee for purchase not disclosed, but I bet you it's around $20 mil pounds or so. City have not yet agreed, of course, and are reviewing. Comolli should stick a wrench in that deal and go after Carlito. Can you imagine a Suarez/Tevez partnership. There would be goals in it for sure. (I know, Jonny, No CL footy here and City would not agree transfer to BPL). But look at those wages and, my guess, low ball transfer fee.
Red2death

Not to mention they could cover for each other while the other's serving another suspension for some random incident. We'd be guaranteed a world class striker at all times. Well, most times.
jpr

Half the players who play for Mancini end up hating him. Just ask Bellers. Mancini caused that whole fiasco by embarrassing Tevez in Munich. City was down 2/nil and needed goals. Mancini subs deJong for Dzeko at 56 minutes. Just to embarrass Tevez and show him who's BOSS. Dzeko was confused, embarrassed and fuming too. He berated Mancini for 30 minutes on the bench. Even the announcers were confused. What is Mancini doing?? He needs goals. Why didn't he put Tevez in? Then he tells Tevez to warm up 5 minutes later and Tevez doesn't understand. Sometimes when you slyly embarrass and belittle a player, you get it stuck back in your own ass. This would never happen with Kenny. Never.
Red2death

Well there's also the challenge of creating a squad that can bond together and also gel with the manager (who happens to be British).

British is what Kenny knows and works best with. British players bond closest with other British players, and so he's chosen the core of the squad to be British. Same with Rafa, who knows Spanish and works best with Spanish players. He chose the core of the squad to be Spanish. Wenger did the same thing, but with French. Even Fergie works the same way for the squads he's been successful with ever since the Premier League invented football in 1992. Utd might have had some great foreigners like Ronaldo and RVN, but the core has always been Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Keane, Pallister, etc.

That's the way it works. If we want to build up a squad of foreigners to avoid paying the British 'premium', by all means we can do it. But we'd also have to find another manager to match. No matter what value is out there, you can't just expect Kenny to do well with a random bunch of foreigners any more than you can expect a trained sniper to do the job with an AK-47. Skill vs money is a factor, but there's much more to it than that.
nezi

very well said..
Red2death

Well said. Points this season definitely trump any sort of player development.

I have trouble imagining that Kenny doesn't know this. He's been very clear that a return to the CL is the main priority this season, and the guy's a veteran of success - he knows what it takes to rack up the points every week and move a club forward. He has to be after the three points first and foremost.

So, that leaves us with the possibility that Carroll wasn't on the pitch just to give him minutes, but rather because Kenny really believed he was the best choice against the Fulham team (just as Maxi, Bellamy were the best choices to face Chelsea).

Problem is, I have trouble imagining how that could be true either. I wonder if other good tactical managers would do the same? I don't see why they would, but then again I'm not a manager.
Latortillablanca

"Points this season definitely trump any sort of player development." kind of a divergent point, but if ull follow me down the rabbit hole...

player dvlpmnt happens whether you like it or not, across the board. athletes are either improving or regressing, at all times, individually and collectively. so you can't separate performance from development.

if player A is hot and player B is cold, over the course of a season that scenario will either be on a reverse trajectory or the disparity will be increasing. so, if player A is at the end of his career and player B is at the beginning, it is possible that the older player continues to improve while the younger player continues to digress. however, put it in the context of the players we have - do you honestly believe that by the end of the season maxi will be a better player that contributes more than he does today, while carroll will be a worse player that contributes less than he does today? if you do, then so be it and you're fully justified in asking maxi to be the nailed on starter and carroll to be sweeping the locker room. but if you can agree with the opposite, then it follows that playing the younger player over the course of the season will be more beneficial to overall team performance. now, of course that also depends on how good the players are to start out with, but i think andy's got enough in the locker, he's just struggling with putting it together. it also doesn't mean that he's gotta start every game, and he hasn't. not at all. it's been a fair amount of late subsitutions and cup games that andy's played mixed in with some league starts.

my point is that to suggest that a specific player can be the difference between being a champions league team or not is shaky logic because that's a monumental collective goal that can only be achieved with a monumental team effort. so if we don't get 3rd or 4th place, it's not gonna be cuz of carroll, and if we do, it's not gonna be cuz of maxi - it'll be cuz the entire team sustained a high enough level of performance throughout the year.

yay? nay?
Red2death

I say yea. And I'm also not saying that our lack of results is solely down to one Andy Carroll not performing. But the fact remains that for the Fulham game specifically, based on current form and performance, the best starting eleven to beat Fulham doesn't involve Andy Carroll leading the line.

Of course maybe even as soon as two weeks from now he might have found his form, Maxi might have hit a rough patch, and the roles would be totally reversed. Then the argument would be the exact opposite - to include the in-form Carroll at the expense of others who aren't performing so well.

There's of course also the argument that you have to include younger players to build them up in team - because integrating the likes of Carroll into the team is far more beneficial in the long run to Liverpool than giving a 31-year-old more minutes. The counterpoint to that, as I mention in some other posts, is that matchday is by far not the only time players get to play with each other. Sure, we see them once a week, but for every one matchday there are five training days which we don't see that provide more than enough time to allow for player development in the long term interests of the club.

The crux of the matter is, as a club gunning for on-field success, points are by far our number one priority this season and any season. We should play the best team we have available for each and every match - unless players are injured, tired, or we just don't care that much about the competition. And yes, that means if some players play well enough to justify a start every single match, and some don't, there's no need to chop and change just for variety sake or to give the other players some game time. There's plenty of time for development outside of the 90 mins that count. And just to take the focus away from Carroll for a while, lest it be said that this is all about him costing us a CL spot, it's not. This would apply to any player, young or old, cheap or expensive, etc.
Latortillablanca

i can dig it with the caveat that matchdays are the only way for carroll to improve at this point, because he's far beyond the point in his career where training with better players will help his development (ie flanno, robbo, sterling).
Purify_the_body

Carroll did not start against Chelsea or City because Kenny clearly knows he wouldn't be able to do much to help win against them. So probably he thought that Carroll could help win against the likes of Norwich, Sunderland, Fulham, etc. He did score against West Brom and Everton.

I think from the beginning of the season Kenny was hoping Carroll would be on a par with Suarez. Then I think he clearly downgraded Carroll to below Suarez. Now I think he has Carroll below Bellamy as well, but he will keep playing Carroll through December in hopes something good happens.
Red2death

So he knows that Carroll isn't the best option, but since it's an easier opponent, he'd still be 'good enough'?

I think Kenny's not that naive. He knows the imperative to play the best team and secure the points, regardless who the opponent is. So it comes do whether he honestly felt Carroll would be more successful breaking down the Fulham defence than Maxi/Kuyt. Did he feel that way honestly? And why?
Purify_the_body

It's not naive, it's calculated. It's the same in any industry. You put people on projects that are at or just above their level. And in football it's usually good to have a mix of older and younger players out there.

Not that I would have selected him, mind. I'd rather have a higher chance to win on the day and fire all the bullets in the gun, same as you.
Red2death

But why does he have to do that? You look at Barca and they play the same players, same way, week in week out regardless if they're up against Real Madrid or Mallorca. Everyone knows how they're going to set up but there's just nothing they can do about it. New players come through, and if they perform well they get to play, if not they don't. Above all that they have European commitments which we don't, to add to the standard domestic cups.
Purify_the_body

Well, Barca are the best and are quite a few more years into their project than we are, but anyway I think Ibrahimovic is an interesting parallel. He scored 16 in 29 for them but didn't fit into their style of play and got the hook after one season and they spent big again on Villa.

As to why he has to do that, he believed in Carroll enough to ask the owners for 35m and they paid it, so he needs to to squeeze that orange until he's sure it's dry. (Hmm, didn't plan to but I just called Carroll a fruit.)
Milesturner

Carroll is no fruit. Far from it. Carroll is a donkey... plays like one and even looks the part.