Poll: Does Liverpool Need Traditional Wingers?

By: Noel | November 1st, 2011

We need a proper winger! came the constant refrain. Kuyt may have been a lock on the right for years, and before him Steven Gerrard may have had his best statistical season cutting in from the flank, but neither was a proper winger. Meanwhile on the left, be it Babel or Benayoun or Garcia, it seemed a role largely filled by default, a place to dump an extra creative player who couldn’t quite manage to get a game anywhere else.

Outside of a few short months when Albert Riera was on form and hadn’t yet fallen out with the manager and fellow players, Liverpool fans would have had to reach an awfully long way into the past for a player who’d been a reliable, consistent, high level contributor for the club from a traditional wide role.

And so the constant chant: We need a proper winger. And so of course, almost inevitably, now that the club finally seems to have one, there are growing doubts as to whether it’s something that was needed in the first place. At least if one is discussing traditional, chalk on the boots, proper wingers and not the myriad variety of narrow, inverted, or more centrally attacking midfield players who spend most of their time not-quite-wide and driving at the box while leaving the responsibility of providing any width to the fullback.

Liverpool, after all, have had a surplus of those sorts of not-quite-wide players over the years. Even while many were identifying the lack of a genuine winger or two as the squad’s biggest weakness, there were others arguing that in modern football the best approach was instead leaving those wide areas to offensively gifted, attacking fullbacks who from their deeper positions could run at the defense having built up a full head of steam after those not-quite-wide attackers had pulled their defenders inside, creating an excess of space to be exploited.

However, it’s always easy to look not at what one does have but at what one doesn’t; it’s aways easy to see the grass as being greener on the proverbial other side. And so Liverpool’s squad, filled as it was with players whose skill-sets lent themselves to formations built around attacking fullbacks, narrow attacking midfielders, and solid midfield cover to provide a bit of balance, was seen as fundamentally lacking. And so, of course, now that the club has a proper chalk on his boots winger out on the left many have found themselves rather uninspired, with a growing chorus preaching the need for a narrow, cut to the box, not-quite-wide player to more properly compliment the club’s rampaging left back. Somebody like Maxi or Craig Bellamy who’s already on the books—or perhaps Damien Comolli could invent a time machine and capture a player like Juan Mata or David Silva, one with buckets of creativity and almost no will to drive to the goal line and whip in crosses.

Certainly it’s always nice to have options, and so at the very least having a natural wide player who looks set to be part of the squad for years to come is something the club and its followers should be glad of. Yet after years of vocal demands for a proper winger each and every transfer window, now that the club finally has one those demands have rather shifted away from the touchline. Some would suggest that Stewart Downing simply hasn’t provided enough as a traditional wide midfielder slash winger and that that is the root problem, yet when asked who would be preferable to him speculation invariably turns to players who aren’t traditional wingers.

Which option, then, do fans see as the way forward now that they’ve had a taste of both sides? Should the club be pushing ahead with Stewart Downing—or some other traditional wide player to be acquired in the future—as the preferred, primary provider of width on the left? Or should the club look to embrace the width provided by an attacking fullback like Jose Enrique with a more narrow left-sided attacker who will draw defenders narrow and create room for the overlap, relegating a more traditional option like Downing to Plan B?

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Category: Miscellaneous, Premier League

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lfc80uk

I don't think I am alone when I say had somebody given you £20 million to spend on a winger, Stewart Downing would not have been top of the list, However, the Downing transfer can be summed up in two words... Andy Carroll. After LFC splashed out £35 million on the pony tailed one, they had to give him the ammunition from the flanks to not only score goals, but also to get the best out of their investment. Which is why the signing of Downing, an experienced Premiership player, that provided plenty of assists last season was the decision taken.

I for one would have used said money to buy the likes of a David Silva, Samir Nasri, Juan Mata, Honda, Hazard. Or one who can play out on the flanks but do not depend on that as the only facet of the game. I would rather have the fullbacks in Jose Enrique and Glen Johnson storming down the flanks similar to how Ashley Cole does.

I feel Downing has been poor since his arrival this summer, hopefully he can get better. But with the £20 million spent on him already. I feel that may sway his inclusion in the first team over the likes of Bellamy unfortunately. I hope by the end of the season he has proved me wrong.
Geoff Twentyman

Yes mate, it really is too early to tell... and remember the summer transfer activity was to bring in premiership 'performers' to get us back challenging. The criticism of Rafa was that he didn't know how to mount a challenge for the league and that his signings only shone on the european stage; yet this year we're not in europe and have brought in players who were doing it for their old club in the epl and we're still not satisfied!
Once a player gets courted from Chelsea, Citeh, RM, Barca - there's not much chance we can compete on a financial level, so I don't expect we'll be in the running to ever sign players like the ones you mention. We've got to get them before they're hot property.
Ryan

So, Suarez is shortlisted for Ballon d'Or. and Lucas isn't. da fuck.

Xabi Alonso makes the list, as does.....Neymar?
lfc80uk

Can't believe Poulson didn't make the list :)
Latortillablanca

has there ever been a dm that won that award? unfair but true. neymar has killed it in the much more competitive brazilian league for the past 3 seasons, i think its nice to have non european based players on the list
Zach

Well I agree with the opinion that there arent enough options on this poll although Downing may need time, and I'm willing to give it to him, I'm all for a headless chicken who will sell shirts and who may have the best hair evar. Therefore the following is my intelligent answer: "Whos Hazard? Come on, you guyz know Neymar haz got a ticket for da Babelcopter in January! SUPASTAR!!! He and Suarezz will be destroyin alll da teams in da Premier!!!!"
Geoff Twentyman

Ah, the classic personnel debate!

Surely, it depends on the formation and set up of the team? In a 4-4-2, you want the traditional wideman, whether it be in the Giggs or Beckham mould. In a 4-2-2-2 you want Nasri and Silva. In 4-2-3-1, you want Ronaldo and Di Maria.

Having read Nate’s piece over on OYB, we’re setting up as a 4-2-2-2, but actually, looking at the player positions in the heat maps, we’re really a wonky 4-3-3. Or are we a lopsided 4-4-2 and Downing is just lazy at defending? Or are we actually a 4-2-3-1 in disguise??

I think my point is that we’re not a traditional set up and as such we are not in need of ‘traditional’ players. Our next set of purchases need to compliment what we already have that will integrate into Kenny’s system. I am not going to judge the success of the recent purchases, because there’s a long way to go, so am going to make the assumption that

I personally think that an adaptable attacking midfielder in the Thomas Mueller mould will be on the shopping list to replace Maxi who doesn’t look to be at the forefront of Kenny’s thinking. He is the type of player who can play on the wing or behind the centre forward. He gets into the box well, but is also not too xabi at creating chances without being the typical chalk on the boots winger. Eden Hazard has been mooted, but with all the hype surrounding this young fellow, would we have the ca$h and the draw to secure his services.

Since the last transfer window, we’ve also been ‘linked’ with Dortmund duo Gotze and Kagawa but I’m not sure on these guys positional strengths – I thought they were more centrally based players. We’ve also been linked with fellow Bundelsliga attacker Marko Marin, Celtics Sun Yong and citeh’s Adam Johnson. That there is a bit of a mix of styles and for the role we’re discussing, I’d still prefer Hazard.
Geoff Twentyman

I note we're also linked with another Uruguayan, Bologna's Gaston Ramirez, also a left attaking midfielder/winger/forward type...
Latortillablanca

that boy can ball. we gonna have to fend off barca tho...
Ryan

A quick search around the webz shows we have a few options from the Academy. Of course, the most well known option is Raheem Sterling. He's only 16, but given that Downing still has 3-4 years left until age kicks in, we can ease him in like Robinson and Flanagan? Speaking of Robinson, congrats on the new contract!!!! Can we drink now?
DJ-Chutfield

My opinion of Downing is the same as that of Carroll; he needs to adapt to how Liverpool play. Liverpool does not need to adapt to how he plays. Carroll had some growing pains, first with his injury, then his time in gelling with the squad and getting enough playing time with Luis Suarez, and those growing pains were painful for us all. But finally at West Brom, it looked like all that pain was worth it. Suarez and Carroll seemed to have finally begun developing an understanding, some kind of dynamic as a striking duo. They've only been together since January of this year, remember, and Everton was the first game where the two of them both appeared on the scoresheet. The long wait for the blossoming Suarez-Carroll partnership that was so celebrated in January may finally be blossoming.

The same is true of Stewart. He came is as the traditional chalk-on-the-boots winger that I believe we really do need in the squad. But his skillset that he brings alone isn't going to be enough. He, like Andy, will have to learn to play Liverpool's style and integrate himself in the pass-and-move groove that Kenny's trying to put in place. But then when he gets the ball at the touchline and sees Andy free or capable of freeing himself, whip in the cross that we paid all those millions for and Andy will give us the headed goals we've all been envisioning. So yes, I'm all for Stewie starting every week, but he must learn to play to the team's strengths while providing the skills we bought him for. Tiki-taka with a crossah.
CharlieAdamsBuckteeth

"My opinion of Downing is the same as that of Carroll; he needs to adapt to how Liverpool play."

This sentence resolves so much of this debate. Well in.
JPR

I'm also for Stewie starting most games. Like your observation of Stewie developing a tiki-taka pass & move style in combination with a "crossah". Fowler knows he's been crossin his ass off. Would like to see big Andy and Stewie integrate their movement better so that Andy is moving to a spot in the box and Stewie is delivering a cross to that spot. Many of the crosses seem to be searching balls without that mental telepathy between them. He has hit targets a few times that should have finished, but....shit. Stewie needs to get a few goals to take the pressure off, which he will. The mental gyroscope to hit the target and ball striking need to be a bit more settled and deadly as well.
Ryan

In the perfect world of the hundred acre wood, we see things like this:

Recipe:

-1 traditional sideman with team spirit, who is quality enough to start every game but will not cry if he doesn't. accurate crosssesssessses. A Young, J Navas, A Johnson, D Beckham
-1 modern inverted winger who looks to cut in and help centrally. C Ronaldo, L Messi, Hulk, Nani
-1 headless chicken winger who can beat most foe with pace, but they usually lack in other departments. One that tracks back, runs their ass off, and so-on. Pedro, Walcott, Lennon, Bale
-1 Dirk Kuyt

With a few youth wingers ready to make an impact when injuries strike, and with plenty of versatile center midfielders who can do a decent job on the sides, this makes a complete midfield. Most teams have a combination of these types of players across the top:

Barcelona have a headless chicken, and one modern inverted winger/kuytish person
Real Madrid have a headless chicken, and one modern inverted winger/pussy
Manchester United have all of the above, goddamn wankers. They even have an Asian Kuyt.

-----------
Which puts us in a weird position: Is Downing the traditional sideman, or the inverter winger? He's played on both sides this season, but I can't tell enough to know which one he's better at. granted, the wingers will be changing it up randomly throughout the game, but dominantly they'll stick to one side. Regardless, I think we need one more, and what type of player that is will determine Downing's future. We don't really have a headless chicken either, but having one around is more of a luxury than anything, and I'd rather just have another sideman/inverted winger before we get a chicken.

Oh. And the future. I mentioned YOUTH wingers. I know we have them in the chicken farm, but why not let them feed on real grass? Dalglish appears to see Henderson as the "versatile center midfielder who can do a decent job on the side", so we need some youth action, especially since Dalglish isn't keen on running Maxi and Bellamy into their graves. Downing is the youngest winger we've got who's seeing action, and he's 27. Big no no, in my opinion. Aston Villa, the club he's from, has got a handful of eggs ready to hatch and grow some wings (Albrighton, Delfounso, Agbonlahor, maybe even Delph). I say that instead of poaching Aston Villa again or other clubs (Scott Sinclair of Swansea looks set for the future, from what I've seen of him in 2 games), this is an area where we should be looking at the Reserves. I'm going to be fucking rabid and bite shit left and right if it turns out that we have no decent wingers in the reserves, especially since we've OBVIOUSLY been lacking one up until this season. So, what, we've had 4, 5 years to realize this and get the boys runnin' chicken drills...
redtrev73

Hey Ryan. I've been waiting for Waiting For Sterling but, well....Wee Raheem is a Proper Winger and must be in The King's thoughts. If that kid isn't top class then I'm a manc.....and we all know how much it even hurt me to type that
Latortillablanca

funny that chelsea jus let sinclair walk. he's got a shot to be ashley young basically. i dont even think they've got a buy back or nething on him.
Ryan

Ya, with the way clubs have been about paying too much for young players, I'm surprised to learn he left for £1million. Whhhhhy didn't we just pay like £6million and own his ass completely?
Guest

He was absolutely terrible in his loan spell at Wigan and generally didn't show any type of form until he left for Swansea.
Ryan

Right. I'm all for forgiveness if he sucks when he's 21. I mean come on, especially for £1million.
Guest

Sinclair would be nice. But think about this:

January 25, 2011: Babel signs for Hoffenheim for £7 million
January 28, 2011: Demba Ba leaves Hoffenheim for West Ham, fee undisclosed

Could we have worked out a player+cash move for Ba? Purely a hypothetical, hindsight is 20/20 sort of thing, but dammit I like Demba Ba.
JPR

Has a degenerative condition in his left knee. Surgeons have advised a number of clubs against signing him.
Ryan

Sinclair or Ba?
JPR

Ba. I like him a lot too. But, whatever it is, it scared off a number of teams. It must be pretty serious. Pulis was going to sign him last January for $9 mil pounds and backed out after he heard his clubs medical opinions. Ironic Ba then nets a hat trick at Stoke.
Guest

Yeah, that would explain a lack of interest by Comolli either in January or this summer on a free. I hope for the player's sake that it turns out to not be a chronic problem, he's a pretty darn good striker.
Latortillablanca

ya i like ba a lot. there were questions bout his mentality as well, he was clashin with everyone at hoffenheim. but the knee didnt seem to bother him mid-week, did it?
Red2death

Btw, any news on Evra/Suarez? Or have they found no basis for the claims and are thus conveniently letting the case go because false accusation isn't really a crime punishable by anything.

Oh, and I too share the opinion that the limited Yes/No dichotomy of the poll doesn't half address the thinking of a group of well-informed and opinionated LFC fans.
Latortillablanca

underscore, bold, italicize "well-informed an opinionate", eh? lovin it.
delonghi esam3300

I agree with former speaker. Its all up to who you are playing against.
Latortillablanca

call me crazy, but for me, not only do we need the traditional winger we got in downing, but we need another winger to complement the boy's game on the other side.

traditional or not, teams that rely on wide attackers for creative spark/assists have more than one guy. the fbs we got can do whatever we ask em to do, and right now, sure they're overlappers, but that doesn't change even if we had ashley young on the other side. name a successful team in the world right now that doesnt ask their fullbacks to bomb forward regardless of the type of attackers in front of them, even if those fbs are not suited to it. its just, the way the game is played nowadays, fbs are two way players. but your wide attackers gotta have that short yardage burst and creative spark about them as well. kuyt's a striker and a workhorse and he walks into any side in the world because of what he brings to the table, but i never have nor do i expect to hear, the terms "short yardage burst" and "creative spark" attributed to kuyt's game. if we're gonna go down this route long term - and considering we brought in the big lug, i dont see how its debatable - then i fully expect further investment in the wide midfield positions.

another starter caliber, and a dvlpmental (sure, sterling, ok i guess, but he's like 3 years away) for any-given-saturday depth. like january or summer at the latest. further, the other as yet to be brought in starter needs to be that twinkle toed style player - lavezzi, lamela, lucas, hazard, etc. now, i'm not saying that guy has to be right-footed and falls in love with every sideline he's ever seen, but he better know a thing or two about skippin past players an gettin balls into boxes.
Suarez from the car park...

can't Henderson provide something of a winger's bent and all of an inverted winger's trade?

If so then what you're asking for is perhaps someone a bit more developed.
Latortillablanca

ya, i mean, hendo is #8s replacement. but we do him a disservice completely disregarding the job he can do for us on the right spelling kuyt. still need that class winger/creative force... i wonder how iturbe's gettin on in porto?
Jerod

I'll take neither.

I mean, both.

That is to say, I'll take the option that allows for the most effective attack in the nearest future fixture, which, it seems to me, depends on the opposition.

How's that for fence-sitting?
Suarez from the car park...

Downing's made some awesome crosses, but we're not in the groove of converting them yet.

They are probably numbers that don't get into the chances created stats aswell.

The one cross where we made contact was Kuyt's effort against ManUre, which he should have scored. It certainly is effective, we're just not finishing [again...]
Latortillablanca

19 jus needs a goal or one of those assists to come through and wake him up a bit. the boy's quality, that's apparent - i think wats also becoming apparent is villa got the better end of that deal. downing for 15? every day of the week plus sundays. downing for the reported low-20s PLUS add-ons? ehhhhhh.... pushin it. but, whatever.
kenny

I would feel safer with a proper winger, but I want both in the attack at times, and then to leave someone
for cover when needed.
Redarmy

Well, we're doing both things, the proper winger on the left and the-not-quite-wide Henderson on the right. Right now I like the play on the left wing more, it adds some unpredictability for defenders with two players providing width. One could argue that it makes sense playing Downing on the right to give him more shooting oportunities, kinda forcing him to pull inside. I'm sure we'll see more of that.
What makes most sense IMHO would be to put Johnson in right midfield and Kelly at full back...I'd love to see how that works out
Waiting For Sterling

I think we need both a creative winger and a traditional one. It would be nice to either have a right footed traditional whipping in crosses and another right foot on the left side allowing Enrique to come up; or vice-versa allowing Johnson more wing play. I feel like the way we played lately hasn't allowed us to use the traditional winger effectively. Generally, as we all know, when the team starts freaking out we play Carroll kick ball and hope for the best. If we could stop that and play the pass and move we've seen in recent matches with the option to play out wide in the same attack we could have the best of both worlds. Downing to me hasn't always been used to full effect and if we do use him that's all we rely on to cross it in. If we could use him and Johnson to play balls in while also moving the ball around through pass and move our team would look a lot more lethal in attack (especially when we don't use Carroll for kick ball and instead for his big melon in front of goal.)
Jz

I don't think either option in the poll fits my opinion. It's nice to have a "proper" winger as an option, but the opponent may dictate whether the fullback or the winger should be providing the width.
Joel

You need a third option: it doesn't matter what you call the player, but the one on form should be starting.

LFC needed a true winger to offer options, not necessarily as a guaranteed starter. When we had Riera, we at least had the option to put someone on the left to offer width and wing play, which we sorely lacked last season.