Liverpool 2, Everton 0: A Derby Win is A Derby Win

That picture is awesome. But what's up with Carroll's arm? Anywho. My FIFA 12 managerial career is runnin' full speed now! I've decided to lead the Reds myself using my virtual pro that is correctly named, "Mighty Boosh". He wears kit number 69 lolololool. Lucas is on his way to the ballon D'or by increasing 3 overall skill points and Charlie Adam is going to win the baboon D'oorknob because he keeps asking me for playing time. How can he possibly expect to start games when Lucas and the Mighty Boosh are in such good form? Sold that sucka to Chelsea for 24,000,000. Now time to buy Neymar...

Pathetic as it sounds Ryan, I already am on my second season. Sold Charlie Adam in the first window to help buy that Alonso guy from Real Madrid. T'was a good purchase. Helped me win the Prem.

Anyone excited about Jonjo Shelvey's progress at Blackpool? I wonder who he would be interchanged with when he comes back after December and if he will be.

But its really encouraging to see a squad that has such quality subs. I mean there are many things that we have to be critical about but compared to last season, it almost feels like nitpicking. I think Liverpool are slowly but surely getting there as long as we remain consistent.

I'm really disappointed that teams like Norwich and even Bolton didn't want to take the likes of Pacheco or Shelvey on loan.  

Norwich couldn't have done worse yesterday with their finishing and Pach would have scored all of those opportunities.  And had shelvey gone to one of those clubs (or even QPR) then he could have got valuable EPL experience.

Either Shelvey was considered too young or pool didn't want him playing against competitors in the league.

I would think that if Bolton took him on loan, Shelvey wouldn't have the chance to play all the time like he is at Blackpool right now. And I'm guessing that his short loan period to December is getting him the playing time he needs and when he comes back, he'll be able to cover a squad that is probably beginning to burn out a little. But this is all complete speculation to be honest.

these deals can be complicated too, what happens if he gets injured, how much of his wages get paid by whom, what kind of recall clauses is the mother club insisting on? maybe the club taking on loan wants a buy on clause, things like that that are a consideration even before you get to the sporting decision.

that said, shelvey needs games and the more difficult the comp the better, wud've loved to have seen him at wigan or swansea ,but blackpool's aight, he shud be afforded every opportunity to play week in week out...

Honestly I wasn't paying too much attention, but he nabbed himself a goal! Let's just hope he doesn't get too used to being the man-with-a-plan in the middle and turn out something slow like Charlie Adam. Only at Liverpool do you learn how to shoot volleys outside the area at full sprint. 

lol, adam bashing at every turn around here!!

I know I know, I do it too often. It just sucks being left out to dry when Joe Cole left. I have no other source of ammunition! I miss you, Degen..

Charlie IS good. Feel better already.

BUT MEIRELES WAS BETTER!!! Don't make me cry under the covers again over this one...I'm such a sad owl.

MEIRELES WAS/IS BETTER!!! I'm still sick about it! KK would be forced to play Raul as a starter now. I always expected the Charlie fascination to be short lived. Even for KK. The cream ALWAYS rises to the top!!

Anyone caught this video of the little tit who thought it was funny throwing a bottle into the ground at Bellamy? The non-reaction from Bellers is priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

You guys are absolutely phenomenal.

Really. The Pool may not have hit top form, today. But, The Offside army sure has.

Seriously enjoyed recapping (again) the post-match afterthoughts. Nothing more to add at this point, its been covered.

I think you're absolutely right about our current best 11 vs the Mancs, Spurs and Chelsea.  Spurs, City and ManU seem fairly locked in with about twelve players and Chelsea is just a little behind them.  But Dalglish has the most questions about his best formation and team.  Glen Johnson coming back will help the squad find better balance because his positioning going forward is the most consistent of the RBs and his stature commands more notice than Kelly and Flanagan seem to get.

arguable that, re: johnson... he's certainly not our best defender at rb, and Kelly is somewhere between a young carragher and johnson going forward, which is all you need really.

I would really like to see a midfield three of Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson/Spearing.  Henderson and Spearing have great instincts to be a plus one with Lucas to let Gerrard roam a bit more or even tuck in behind the striker(s).  Downing had an inconsistent game today but that is not too worrisome for a winger given our current system and team form.  Bellamy seems like an actual super sub and that is rare.  Martin Skrtel is not great at anything and is either locking arms with strikers or giving them too much space in front of him.  he seems to be genuinely trying hard, his heading is improved over last season, but I would like to see him go in January if someone great is available.  That is unlikely, though.  Carroll is improving and even though he misplayed a few passes today he did fairly well in the box and that is what everyone has been worrying about.  Last week at Wolves he had a great flick on to Suarez from a Reina throw but Suarez was unacceptably offside.  It still looks like our attack is a work in progress but the defense, apart from Enrique and occasionally RB, looks like it needs to be scrapped and start fresh.  Manchester United's front four of Ashley Young, Wayne Rooney, Javier Hernandez and Luis Nani really makes me nervous.  Maybe if we clog the midfield with workers like Lucas, Henderson/Spearing, Maxi, Gerrard and Kuyt/Bellamy with Suarez poaching steals from behind I like our chances. One last note: In the corresponding BPL fixtures from last season we got five points, this season the number is thirteen.

Still not convincing and all that.  But what was good about this game, and so many others of late, is that we can actually make substitutions that make a difference.  We have quality to call on when some players aren't firing on all cylinders - which will invariably happen.  Downing had a day to forget, but we can put Bellamy in to add a new dimension.  If Adam has another ineffectual display, Spearing is a quality replacement, Maxi can come in and change the complexion of the team.  No more throwing on David Ngog in the hopes that something will happen (and invariably it doesn't change a thing).

We haven't had this in years!

Granted, our starting eleven isn't as strong as in previous seasons.  It used to be that if LFC is on song, we can beat anyone in the league (except most of the time weren't on song, or we'll have some injury that doesn't allow us to play our best team).  With this squad, our best vs the best that Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, City can offer - I think we'll struggle to compete if they're having a good game.  But, when we have players that don't perform on the day, or a gameplan that's not working out, we're much more able to change things up and still get a result.

We're still lacking some truly classy players on the level of Gerrard, Suarez, Silva, Aguero, Giggs, Cesc.  Hopefully those will come later.  For now, I suspect we'll be underdogs against any of the bigger teams, and if we get them on their day, we'll struggle to go toe to toe with them.  But at the same time, if we can build up consistency against Everton, Wolves, Villa, Norwich, that's gonna provide a very strong foundation, and we'll be hanging on in the race till March, April, May.

I took an advance on my "whiskey over wisdom" wager and will toast a derby day delight until the sun returns with the vengeance of Denzel in "Man on Fire". I'll save my concerns over Skrtel and his impact on the Brazillian/Bucktooth partnership. I'll keep my dead-on "holy fuck, why didn't I see that" observations in my pocket, for now. 

Three points at Goodison, missing Agger, without Gerrard at full strength, and with Suarez/Carroll out of sync? Cheers to that, you analytic bastards.  

Its taken peeps here ages to realise what brazilians already know, lucas is a great player. When there are 100 million players in brazil vying for eleven spots on the national team you have to have some skills to be picked. As such, Damaio would be the solution to liverpools finishing dilemma. I thought brazils diego would have solved the midfield creativity issue but dalglish didnt press forward with getting him. Now that Damaio has been considered, they MUST get him. Not only is he a stone cold finisher (some here have compared him to the one and only ronaldo - i mean the REAL one), he has a great attitude borne of hardship when he was younger. So you wont find him sulking or being petulant. Hope KD follows up on him.

We made good work of 4-2-3-1 for ever and a day under Benitez and now we seem to like 4-4-2.  That was also Hodgon's tipple and it made us look less resilient last year aswell.

Is the way to accommodate Adam going back to the more continental setup?  It would probably help him out defensively and allow us to connect with Carroll far more as the line of 3 can move up towards him while the 2 cdm's cover.

And isn't it a more flexible formation in anycase?  

Just seems like we've moved away from the setup that's actually served us very well for a long time now and left us with a setup that exposes individual weaknesses.

You can have Adam or 2 strikers, but you can't have both. His only safe position is as the 3rd/attacking CM in a 3-man central midfield. Otherwise, he has to track and defend someone, and that doesn't turn out well...

My thinking is the 2-3 can compress into a 5 man midfield when needed, as we used to do.  4 across the middle is always either exposing the back or not well enough connected to the front.

It doesn't take away his responsibilities but adds cover which currently is all coming down to Lucas.

Great write-up Ed. Always good to read your take on things as it invariably tallies with what ACTUALLY happened in the game I saw, as opposed to some lazy hack's take or the agenda-driven moaning you get on other blogs. So, y'know, top man and all that...

We need to appreciate what's happening at LFC. Our great club is patently evolving and the process has been mostly rewarding. Kenny is a truly remarkable, galvanising character but the squad he is assembling is not where it needs to be yet. Some of the comings and goings have divided opinion and the development of the new boys has caused much wringing of hands and testiness about the validity of 'settling in' time. Today it seems that even the delight of beating the bluenoses in their own place is tempered by a need to analyse what should have been better.

Perhaps the muted tone of the celebrations is to be expected after a match that did little to quell the anxiety demons that have been haunting us Redmen of late.

*Another game in which we dominated possession but didn't kill-off the contest. 

*Another game in which the big man up top looked all-at-sea and out-of-sorts and other 3-word expressions meaning ineffective.

*Another game in which we invite the opposition on to us at 1-0 up and stop pressing them in their own half - a sure-fire way to NOT press home an advantage.( Anyone else screaming at the flatscreen in the second half every time Marouane Fellaini ambled towards our goal from midfield completely unchallenged? )

But is all this introspective navel-gazing really warranted?

Pepe was solid after a few uncharacteristic moments of shakiness in recent weeks. The only man more likely than Reina to have a cardiac episode if we failed to keep a clean-sheet was me.

Carra was immense today - positionally, aerially and organisationally. I swear to god I don't know how Skrtel didn't punch him with the amount of whinging and dragging our Scouse Soul did at the poor Slovak. Martin was prety good too, if a little reluctant to come out and meet the oncoming attacker.

Both Kelly and Enrique were excellent defensively and in attack. The Academy kid was impressive but the Spaniard is my player of the season to date. Interestingly, he seems to link-up better with Bellers than Downing...

Today Charlie Adam was more solid. He used the ball pretty well and curbed his rashness. Hugely unlucky not to score a wonder-goal and for my money, took a step-forward in this game. (He does need to do a LOT more stepping back defensively, however) Lucas Leiva is the best defensive central midfielder in the Prem and the joy I felt as he clenched his fist in triumph towards the fans when leaving the field minutes before the end was the best aspect of today's win. A full-circle moment that should be an inspiration to Hendo, Andy and Adam. The guy's a gem.

Dirky was his usual productive self and the penalty miss is just a law-of-averages thing that certainly didn't detract from another top display and a reminder to The Boss that he should always start. Stewart Downing had his quietest game in a red shirt to date and seemed to let the game largely pass him by. His generally impressive work up to today makes this poor outing less of a worry than it might otherwise be.

Luis Suarez was less irritated than he has been of late and to be fair the guy was effective and classy as always. The post-match interview in English was a great sign. 6 years in the Prem and tevez can't manage that. He is LFC's top man however, and I thought he looked knackered. Is it too much to hope his Uruguayan coach might let him skip this round of internationals?

Which brings us to Andy... He ran, he harried, he defended impressively with Carra at set plays but until moments before his goal, when he connected with a couple of headers from corners, the poor guy couldn't make ANY impact as an attacker. I thought he was a cert to be substituted but Kenny persevered with him and we shall see how much that fine goal he scored helps his development.  

That goal came about as a result of the impetus injected by Craig Bellamy. I love the guy and I want to see him start more. He keeps showing Kenny what a class act he is and has a good understanding with Enrique and Luis. The Captain was the other man who helped to swing the game our way and it was interesting to see him come on and play the deep-lying midfield role. He looked strong, fit and most importantly, classy on the ball. Whatever will The King do when he next has a full contingent to pick from? (I'd like to assume that's next game but we have to endure international fortnight first)

To cap it all off we got to see Kenny hand Sky's Jeff Shreeves his arse without resorting to ferguson ignorance.  

We beat the blues at Goodison. Let's enjoy it folks.

gotta agree with all this.  the point u raise about suarez being tired is pretty worrying given how much kenny loves to play him...

the only thing id question is whether we really want bellamy to turn into anything more than our super sub, wudnt that be kind of a waste of 20m+ if downing doesnt make that side his own?  sure, start him occasionally in the cups or whatever, but id say his role is just fine as is.

Realistically, that supersub role is probably where Bellers will fit-in over the season 'blanca but for me, the joy is contemplating the options which an on-form Bellamy adds to LFC. He can be effective left or right, as part of a top-two or even lead the line in a pinch. With Andy, Luis, Dirky, Stevie and Downing all in the shake-up for an attacking role, Kenny will have that pleasant selection headache that all managers crave.

interesting point about enrique linking better with bellers. In the last pre-season game against valencia, I thought Aurelio and Downing struck up a really good instinctive partnership. Creates an interesting conundrum for KK/SC maybe? 

Gotta love the '11/'12 conundrums Prad! A measure of how far we've come in one year

If Fabio Aurelio were ever fit, yes.

good post, some very good ones today.

I think Carroll didn't get some of the expected service today, as suggested by MOTD.  They've gone from always hoofing it to him to being mega reluctant to cross it into him from the wings which is the service he does need.

He does have to be a bit more predatory, run in and expect the ball to be there - that's down to coaches picking up on it.  Otherwise I'm not sure how he becomes a bigger part of the game.

Still don't feel like Adam can't command his territory which I think is a big issue for us.

Points were good though, and Suarez made a major impact without being at his best again.  The guy is unreal except for missing that header.  That was seriously knob-head.

Never a card let alone a red. But you guys are picking up since we beat you as expected and  Carrol looks to be a massive asset who will get better in the next month or two despite the criticism he has received. Moyes/Everton have my sympathy though. Tough times for which don't look like going away. Hope you will all cheer on the mighty Spurs tomorrow :)

I will not be cheering the Spurs on tomorrow and that is out of respect to the fact that Spurs look more dangerous than Arsenal to our ambitions at the present.  So basically, a draw will do me just fine

COYS

Well....a win is a win....after all good teams get points when they are NOT playing well. united barely got off the hook against norwich....they didnt impress either and have looked far from champs over the past two games (midweek), so just be glad LFC are winning thats all that matters for this season. For them to start playing like brazil you prob have to wait a couple of more seasons. give it time

Not sure I'll add anything original to the discussion, but awful, awful refereeing from Atkinson. Just horrendous. Top performances go to Enrique, Lucas, and Carra. Worst performace for me was Adam- he fails to track back and also fails to show for the ball when our back four are looking to play it out of defense, essentially trying to play a free role style while in a midfield partnership, which simply isn't going to work. Thankfully, Lucas is his partner, meaning the gaping hole Adam left in our midfield was usually stoppered. It also seemed that Adam's positioning contributed to Downing's anonymity as he occupied the area the Downing generally uses for movement while failing to show for short passing and one-twos with the winger. 

On a whole, the team still looks promising, but doesn't seem to have properly gelled yet. Here's to hoping Gerrard's return fixes that.

This is down to coaching.  Steve Clark/Keen need to earn their coin here.  If they're not aware of it that's a big problem.  

If they are aware of it and aren't giving Adam intensive coaching to make him more than the half a midfielder he is, then that's also a big problem.

If they are coaching him as per all the posts on Adam, and he's not putting it together, then that's not so bad.  He may learn over a period of time and other players can take his place.

Question is which one is it?  Because I don't think we'll look like 4th place material until his game is sorted out or perhaps Gerrard replaces him.

I suspect it's down to the player as the midfield looks significantly different when Lucas has been partnered with Spearing and Gerrard: both of them have significantly more north-south movement than Adam.

ok, but doesn't that suggest the coaches are letting players do their own thing?

if adam is an offensive midfielder, and lucas a defensive midfielder, then, theoretically, as a partnership adam's defensive deficiencies should be covered by lucas, while lucas' offensive deficiencies should be covered by adam.  Now, this may be obvious, but to a lot of folks it seems that they are not grasping the idea of a midfield partnership when critiquing adam/lucas, and it digresses into a discussion about adam as a defensive midfielder or lucas as an offensive mid... so, now that we've laid out this distinction we can say, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that lucas picks up more of his offensive slack than adam does his defensive slack; however, This. Is. Not. The. End. Of. The. World.  Lucas' ability to compensate for adam makes adam's defensive deficiencies against weaker or like opposition a Wash.  For that reason, it does not necessarily bother me when adam is shockingly absent on D.  However, when we play the Man utds, chelseas, City's, or Champs League opponents that are purportedly our short-medium term aim, then it does become a worry.  Luckily, the answer already is in the squad, wearing the captains armband, with the most notorious groin this side of Superhead... 

Im a self professed adam apologist, but im really only making this point - and i confess its not directly related to ur post - so that we can try to stop having discussions in general about adam as a defender or lucas as an attacker... srlsy. 

It's not a digression to discuss Adam as a DM because that's where he is playing. And he is not doing his job well at all. If Kenny wants him closer to goal and shooting or running the counter, he can take off another project like Carroll to free up a spot further up the pitch. Otherwise, he's proving to be a major liability as anticipated.

Gerrard is also not suited to the position, although he could obviously be an upgrade from Adam, who is about as troubling to the opposition as a flea would be to a tank.

the cm position that lines up next to lucas is not a second cdm position... 

Use whatever letters or words you like to describe it, the fact is that Adam is not good enough to play it. He is the most-carded player in the league since beginning of last season for a reason. 

lol.  im not even gonna get into the whole adam discussion again, we're going in circles already - i'm just trying to underline a basic tactical point, the CM is a playmaking role in an adrea pirlo/xavi mould - as such, the defensive responsibilities are quite limited, especially given how much ground lucas covers. 

Lucas' offensive game is actually pretty damn good. He always shows for the ball and positions himself well to help out anyone under pressure. He is excellent at picking out passes and continuing the play and maintaining possession. Today his passing efficiency is 68/75 - about 90%. He does, of course play as a DM mostly in his positioning on the pitch. He could improve his shooting ability to help with the few shots he gets. Defensively, however, he is one of the best in the Prem as we have all observed and commented on. His defensive abilities are critical to the team, but his offensive abilities are very, very helpful.

Charlie, on the other hand is almost completely invisible with his defensive side of the game. Tracking, positioning, tackling(?), closing down (especially in the penalty area!), etc. etc. Just read Lucas post here and many of the other posts to see how frustrated so many of us are watching this. His offensive game, while pretty good, is certainly not spectacular. If we removed his offensive game from the pitch and replaced it with someone elses, do you feel that the team would score that many fewer goals? Would we be that much less dangerous offensively? We still have Suarez, Bellamy, Carroll, Downing, Kuyt, Gerrard, etc. for the creative part of the game going forward and for goal scoring. His defenisve contributions are nonexistent and his offensive capabilities don't contribute enough to compensate for a complete lack of defense. He does not bring enough skills to a top 4 side (prospectively) to be considered the starting CM.

right.  im agreeing with all that. 

im just trying to draw a line under the complaints about adam's defensive game.  its terrible, we know that, but with lucas in the side, that position is not really asked to do a lot defensively so its not the disaster it gets played out to be with adam in there.  its more concerning for me that adam hasn't been lighting it up offensively, but i believe that will/can come. 

and lucas' offensive game, well we can generate as many passing statistics as we like, but your never gonna confuse him for #8 are you?  but like i said, lucas picks up way more slack offensively than adam does defensively, which is a big reason why when the captain starts again it will be in predominately for adam in the central mid position, not out wide right or behind the striker (although he will obviously play in those positions at some point this season as well), and should give us the strongest CM partnership in the league bar City...

It's not so much about Adam needing to play 'defensively', but he does need to increase his work rate and track back when possession is lost. There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting forward from CM, but Adam's issue is that he doesn't drop back once he does. When he does finally leisurely trot back into a defensive position, he floats around looking to receive a pass rather than covering passing lanes or runs. 

This is the crux of my complaints with Adam- he has a worryingly lackadaisical attitude in defense, playing like he can just let others do the work while he recovers stamina or regains his breath. That might cut it in a 4-3-3 with two other CMs and wide men tracking back, but it won't in a 4-2-2-2.

Yea. I actually am starting to feel bad that I'm picking on Charlie. I just wish he would make more of an effort and commitment to play D. It's gotta be a mental thing to an extent and also the skills can be learned and acquired. Like you said, we picked him up at a bargain, and maybe we're all expecting a bit much.

Charlie was in position to prevent both the Sunderland and Wolves goals. He just had to read the situation and contest the entry pass. But he just stood his ground.

Anyway, as Jonny and others have pointed out, I just wish the coaches would help Charlie improve his mental toughness, hustle and skills in this area. It would allow us to focus on his offense, which is what we would like to be doing.

im sure they're working as hard as possible on it, and im optimistic he'll improve, but he's never gonna be anything more than half decent as a defender.  its just not that big of a deal to me, i guess. he's stevie's back up, i'll take it.

Yea. I'm just not sure about the "Stevie's backup" part. I'm still not sure whether KK is planning to stick with Charlie in that role and play Stevie either on the right or farther forward. And Charlie needs to improve his D (and laziness, mental toughness) if he will be continuing to play a major role.

"...essentially trying to play a free role style while in a midfield partnership."

This is a really, really good point. Not convinced it can't come good (although admittedly very skeptical, at least in certain/most matches), and think Downing was slightly more disappointing today. But yeah. Really good point. Deserves highlighting.

Nate, would a 4-2-3-1 suit us better, as we used to play?   Is the 4-4-2 exposing individual weaknesses?  

For example, some would criticise Stevie G's defensive capabilities with the forward nature of his game.  That old setup of Rafa's allows the mf to compress into a 5 man unit if necessary while maintaining closer contact with the forwards and the defence.

I imagine 4-2-3-1 would suit certain players better (ie Adam) and certain players worse (Carroll immediately pops to mind, maybe Downing as well). Don't know about Suarez but suspect he can play in any system. Has looked both good and less good in pretty much every formation; when used as spearhead in 4-2-3-1 end of last season, Liverpool won one and lost one (5-2 Fulham + 0-1 Villa). As you say, 4-2-3-1 is often about compressing space, at least the 4-2-3-1 Benitez used. Dalglish's Liverpool is usually far more open no matter the formation, for better and for worse, both this season and last.

I'd have thought 4-3-3 would suit the majority of players best, but that has no basis in reality. The closest we've come to seeing that formation was against Spurs, and we all know how that went.

Still don't know how Dalglish intends to use Gerrard so I'm really trying to reserve judgment until then. Seems like his inclusion has to alter the set-up, even if Liverpool ostensibly stay 4-2-2-2.

Seems a problem formation including all the purchases made.

Well, with 2 weeks to kill there's plenty of time to air the 'best position for Gerrard' discussions, and now within the context of a new squad.

There was a moment in the 50th or 51st minute, or at some point around then, that thoroughly convinced me that trusting Charlie Adam to be a defensive midfielder is a mistake on the part of Daglish, Comolli, et al. Fellaini had the ball, and Lucas, playing to the left of Adam, went to apply pressure. Adam, rather than stay at home and help Skrtel and Carragher deal with Saha and Cahill, decided to double team Fellaini with Lucas. This was Charlie's first mistake.

Once Lucas recognized that Adam was coming out to double Fellaini, Lucas felt confident enough to be more aggressive in his pursuit of Fellaini up field, and let Adam cover the goal side. Which seemed like a good idea on Lucas' part, except it put a little too much trust in Adam to cover the goal side, which he didn't. Fellaini moved away from the greater threat (Lucas), took on the lesser man (Adam), beat him, and went straight to goal. That was Charlie's second mistake: getting beat by Fellaini when all he had to do was stay in between him and the goal with Lucas in pursuit. 

The greatest sin of them all? After getting beat by Fellaini, rather than run after him full speed and try to rush Fellaini, or win the ball back, Adam half-assedly jogs in pursuit. Lack of fitness, or lack of commitment? It doesn't matter as far as I am concerned. Heck, even on the U.S. broadcast Ian Darke called out Adam for the lack of effort.

The result of the particular play was Fellaini, with Lucas and Adam both behind him, had all day to pick a pass to Saha, who given space by the vulnerable and exposed Carragher and Skrtel,  had a decent chance. If I recall correctly, the shot was off the target, but it was a chance nonetheless and was completely preventable if Adam had a bit more discipline in his positioning or his pursuit of Fellaini.

Now, someone (and I'm thinking Noel, or even Joel, as both are pretty adept with the whole screen-capture analysis stuff) is more than entitled to go back and take a look at this particular moment of the game, to either confirm or debunk what I witnessed. It is only one anecdote, but I feel there were other times where Charlie charged off recklessly to chase someone on Lucas' side rather than leave it to Lucas to handle, leaving the center halves exposed. I also couldn't help but notice that when Gerrard replaced Lucas, that Gerrard stayed at home whenever Lucas pressured someone in his area of the pitch. Or maybe I'm a guy who writes under the pseudonym "LucasLeiva21" and I'm incredibly biased against Charlie Adam...

I've seen enough so far this season to say this much: 2 clean sheets in 9 league and Carling Cup games isn't good enough, and if we want Champions League football then it has to get better (the clean sheets both occurred, for what its worth, against undermanned teams).  Whether or not that has to do with an aging Carragher, a shaky Skrtel, a hurt Agger, injuries at the right fullback spot, or poor play in front of the back line by Mr. Adam is really up to debate. But I'd have an easier time making someone other than Adam the scapegoat if he at least showed some effort when he got beat.

spot on

I would really like to see a few every touch sort of videos where we get to see him on the ball and when he is around the ball defensively because it feels like he is actively hurting the team for about forty minutes a match.

Another moment was around the 60th minute. Adam was pressuring but saw someone else coming to defend, so he just backed off, leaving Saha with absolutely no pressure smack dap right outside the box. 

Yup. This has been happening A LOT.

When Spearing came into the side last season, we suddenly went on a run of clean sheets. That was no accident.

great post.  Alongside Lucas, you're job isn't to attack players with him, it's to be ready for the next play should Lucas not do the business, in this case being the next wall to go through if it gets to that.

It shouldn't be that hard to teach Adam but that depends on KK/SC/Keen and their methods.  Are they analysing this stuff and talking through positional play with him on screen?  
I do wonder, even Steve Clark admits to being old fashioned in his approach which suggests harping back to pre-defensive midfielder days.

What is bizarre is that until this season we were pretty fine in midfield.  Really annoying.

"It shouldn't be that hard to teach Adam but that depends on KK/SC/Keen and their methods.  Are they analysing this stuff and talking through positional play with him on screen?"

Good question. I can only think of two possibilities: the coaches are either allowing Adam the freedom to play his game, or they have tried to instruct him to be more disciplined in his positioning but he hasn't adhered to/learned from such instruction. Not sure if either case is one that sits well with me.

well, if Adam isn't learning he can be taken off (maybe he'll learn in time) or even replaced completely - I'm not so concerned with that.

If the coaches seem to just think it'll come good, then that's what is a concern.

However, the big qualification to this is the formation.  4-4-2 isn't that flexible and I wonder if it's exaggerating individual weaknesses far more than Rafa's 4-2-3-1 where you stay more in touch with the front line and the middle can compress into a 5 man barrier if needs be.

We used to be good at controlling midfield in the days of Gerrard/Alonso/Masch but we never played 4-4-2.

Like you, I prefer the 4-2-3-1. However, for purposes of accuracy, its important to note that, at least according to some random guy on some internet board in 2009, that in the 08/09 campaign Rafa set up in a 4-4-2 in as many games or more than he set up in a 4-2-3-1.  A lot of Keane-Torres up top early out, which obviously gave way to the Gerrard-Torres partnership in the 4-2-3-1 and led to the Keane sale. Just off the top of my head, the first match of that season against Sunderland, Xabi and Masch didn't start, Torres and Keane were up top and Gerrard was paired in the middle with Plessis (remember that guy?). Then Alonso came on in the 2nd half for Plessis.

I'm okay with the 4-4-2/4222 we play now as long as we're playing against some sort of 4-4-2 as well, and we're not being overrun in the midfield. But again, like you I wouldn't mind seeing more 4-2-3-1 with Stevie back.

ok, well I'll see your "random guy on some internet board in 2009" and raise you a "some random pundit on some footy program in 2008", probably Mark Lawrenson on MOTD, who said he couldn't work out where Keane could fit in Rafa's team because he plays a lone striker up there (Torres).  

It seems 442 was used to accomodate Keane in the 2 striker formation but then it wasn't long before he would sub him out and eventually abandoned it altogether for the 1 striker option when Keane returned to Chav Land.

think he thought it was effective in attack and certainly our defence was very good back then, though he spent a long time trying to get the wing back thing working.

For us 4231 implies Downing, Suarez, kuyt behind Carroll (inter-changeable with Gerrard, Adam, Hendo, Bellamy, Maxi etc).  

That doesn't really allow Kenny to use his purchases.  It also stops Suarez wandering side to side which you don't really want.  

So I guess it's a non starter.

And then I read your response to Joel, Jonny, and realize you more or less had the same two potential answers to such a question. Silly me.

i remember clearly the play ur talking about, and u make a solid point, which basically boils down to, adam needs to improve, he's not good enough to be first choice for liverpool at current form.  my only two counterpoints wud be, a.) since when was adam bought to be a "defensive midfielder"... comolli and kenny knew damn well wat they were buying when they picked him up, and it certainly wasnt to fit a square, offensive peg, into a round, defensive hole.  2.) if today is any indication, steven gerrard, not charlie adam, nor raul meireles if he was still a red, is the starting central midfielder for liverpool football club.  so, if adam is a backup, he's as good a backup as you'll find in the league.

He's a defensive midfielder with defensive responsibilities if he's playing in a pair with Lucas, which, more often than not, he has. See Joel and nate's discussion in this thread re: playing a free role while in a midfield partnership.

Playing where he is, he has an obligation to defend. Maybe he didn't for Ollie at Blackpool, but hey, they got relegated largely because they couldn't keep the other guys from putting the ball in their net. Dumb tactics are dumb. They scored 55 goals last year, which was four less than us and as many as the Spurs. But they conceded 78. Could of used more brains in the center of the park.

And if you think Gerrard and Lucas are the partnership from here on out (and that may very well be the case), well I have to beg to differ as far as the whole Charlie being "as good as any backup in the league." If Lucas or Stevie needs to come off, you could always bring Spearing on, and he has a better handle on actually shielding the back four. Maybe I'm just an Adam hater...

we do not play with 2 CDMs under Kenny...  Yes, charlie lies deep, and he has defensive responsibilities that he sherks, but he is not a second CDM, and his main role is an offensive, playmaking one.  Ideally in this system, your CM is the orchestrator like Pirlo was for those great Milan sides in 2005 an 2007, and how Xavi is currently for Barca.  Those 3 systems all rely on an overly defensive mid playing a straight up CDM position partnered with a deeplying CM who is actually most responsible for maintaing possession, keeping a tight defensive position without the ball and starting attacking moves.  How many tackles do you see Xavi and Pirlo making in a game?  How much do their lack of tackles effect their respective teams? how mobile are either xavi and pirlo?  how much does their lack of mobility effect their teams?  not much, cuz they each had busquets, masch, keita, gattuso, ambrosini, emerson covering them. 

Lucas is the cdm, and charlie/steven will play the cm role lining up next to them, but this does not mean kenny is asking #26 and #8 to be defensive midfielders...

You are referencing teams that play with 3 men centre midfields;

Barca - Busquets CDM; Xavi and Iniesta as CM/CAM.

Milan played Pirlo DLP and Seedorf CAM with Gattuso CDM.

The classic 4-4-2 needs both midfielders to do a share of offensive and defensive work load in the syle of Keane and Scholes for example. 

we dont play a 4-4-2, if anything we're somewhere between a continental 4-5-1 and a 4-3-3... anyway, the point im making is about the movement of those CMs, which is perhaps what adam is most maligned for, and pirlo and xavi move more or less at the same speed as adam - they do just fine.  its about finding his offensive feet at the moment, im afriad - anyway im tired of having this argument with 25 ppl at a time... adam will be fine, ill just shut up and wait for him to prove it on the pitch.

Well said, both you and etipok bring up good points.

The Italian team that won the World Cup in '06 even had a CAM/trequartista in Totti who, if I remember correctly, would track back and help Pirlo and Gattuso defend the center of the park. Which is why, in addition to Cannavaro and that excellent backline, it was so damn hard to score against them.

at barca xavi keeps possession very well and in italy the game is a little slower so pirlo can position himself so as to be able to take up a defensive position without having to make a tackle. in the premiership the games are very quick so adam, if he to play the 'pirlo' role, needs to take up a 'defensive' position quicker. he needs to close down, put pressure on the opposition and shield the defence much better even if he doesnt tackle. in my opinion, one of the biggest problems with adam is his inclination to always want to play the 'hollywood' pass. he needs to develop the ability to choose the right times to play those passes and know when to play it simple, otherwise he will continue to give possession away and will keep putting the team under unnecessary pressure.

point taken - its hard to make a direct parrallel, but its as close as i could come up with off the dome.  As far as his passing, agree there too, but the last two games show he can reign that in, now he needs to reign in the hollywood pass while still being an attacking force, which he has been unable to do thus far.

Could have posted this somewhere further down but just decided to do it here, just trying to make a point here that although 'we' might have decided that Adam is playing in a defensive position as a 2 in MF and whether KK has asked him to play defensively or not we don't know BUT considering Kenny continues to play Adam in the two we have to assume he's doing what Kenny's asking him to do.

Anyway, to the point...

Adam is not playing as 1 of 2 DM, he's playing as part of a deeper lying 2 man MF, one playing defensively and the other with more attacking intent.

We keep quoting passing stats, as a way of comparing the players which i understand as Adam was brought in to play the pass, we generally forget they play different kinds of passes, Adam's playing the riskier one's.

So lets look at Adam's and Lucas' shooting stats, so far after 7 games in [which is a pathetic sample to judge anything by] Lucas has had 5 shots in total and is yet to hit the target and Adam, he's had 15 shots, scored once, had a deflected one go in and hit the woodwork twice.

So Adam may be one crap DM but then Lucas is one crap AM, that's if we're comparing them that is.

What i'm not saying is that Adam is better then say Gerrard, that's obvious at attacking or better than Lucas at defending. I just think it's fair to judge Adam based on what he's supposed to offer to the team which is threat at goal from deeper and good set-piece delivery.

Yes!! Thank u, jesus, i was starting to think maybe i had gone crazy on this basic tactical point...

This is a response to both you and Nic, Mr. Blanca. 

If my categorization of Adam as a "defensive midfielder" offends you, then fine, let's call him a "deep-lying playmaker who has defensive and attacking responsibilities, and plays next to Lucas who himself is certainly a defensive midfielder." If calling Adam something other than a defensive midfielder is what you want, fine. But that doesn't excuse him for, when the opposition has possession in our half of the field, completely charging off recklessly and unnecessarily leaving our center backs exposed. Which is what started this discussion in the first place.

To address both your and Nic's points, yes, he can add something on the offensive end. He has a wonderful left foot, can be a scoring threat, and does wonderful on set pieces. It just happens to be a shame that there's more to the game than those things, and playing in the spot he's playing next to Lucas he's required to do more defensive work.

If he's supposed to be the Alonso to Lucas' Mascherano, well, he's failing as far as I'm concerned. Unless I missed something, I never felt Alonso abandoned the defensive side of the game quite like Adam seems to routinely do, and Alonso arguably provided (and continues to provide for Real and the Spanish side) more going forward, since he has a knack for completing the long passes that Adam so frequently over-hits. But again, my initial post had nothing to do with the offensive side of the game. It was about Adam unnecessarily leaving his zone to double Fellaini, getting beat by Fellaini, and then half-assedly tracking back while Everton got themselves a nice scoring chance while a man down when the score was still tied.

That shit isn't going to fly October 15th, I'm afraid.

lol. first of all, mate, it takes a hell of alot more than that to offend me!  we're having a discussion, its educative, and no one is ever 100% right, thats the whole point of coming on to this blog... so, have ur go, take a run, make ur points, its all gravy.

overall, im pretty sick of being one of about 4 people willing to give adam longer than 6 games into a season to prove his worth, if everyone had their druthers on this site our starting line up would include something like 18 players, no wingers, with gerrard shunted out right, while simultaneously reprising the CAM role he had behind torres, and suarez playing as a lone striker, and a left winger, and a CAM and carragher living in a retirement home somewhere.

I stand by my tactical understanding of the game, and particularly of the way liverpool plays, and i think nic eloquently described the position.  Ur right, we can call what we want, and that position needs to play more d and be more effective in distribution, which is why steven gerrard is our starting cm, not adam.  however, this doesnt mean adam is the heaping pile of dogshit he gets played out to be.  he'll be fine.  however, i am getting bored with taking a stand against the legions of adam haters, so I'll keep it quiet and wait for him to come good, then come out with a massive I told you so.

cheers!

I recall Alonso's tackling statistics being impressive in either % completed or quantity - can't remember which exactly.

im with you on this one

I'm certainly hoping that this would've been picked up amongst the coaching staff to be worked on Adam's game. His natural game has never been inclined anywhere near the defensive side as we all know how "defensive" Ian Holloway's Blackpool always played. They were lauded for their gung-ho games and certainly that's not defensive is it?

Now that Adam's here and I have to agree that even Spearing offers more stability and balance workload-wise with Lucas and he occasionally sprays a good ball or two other than mostly keeping things simple. If Adam keeps his form up of picking silly fouls that lead to Yellows and possible Reds, then most certainly the players around him are going to be worn out trying to work extra hard to cover his balance for the team. 

I'm not an Adam hater and I don't think anyone around here is either. The write-ups by Noel before we signed him left illustrations that were pretty clear that he contributed very inconsistent stat-plays but if he could possibly improve his "tactical awareness" in such terms, it would go a long way to adjusting his lack of defensive skill-set and help the team much more than being a liability and scapegoat.

Really excited for Carragher today.  He and Carroll were a huge reason why so many of Everton's set pieces were cleared straight away and he made a few of those big tackles in and around the box that we know and love him for.  

Feelin like the review is a bit gloomy - we won the derby! at Goodison! Perhaps it is a positive reflection on the team that concern is present after such a big result.

Certainly didn't intend to be gloomy, but I can see what you mean. Just thought they looked a little subdued for much of the first seventy; conversely encouraged by the way they closed, though. Like I said a few times, and you reiterated, any sort of win in the derby is good enough.

But I was operating on four hours sleep, a hangover, and taking care of my five-month-old during the match and the recap, so maybe it was just my overall sense that life has defeated me coming through.

we definitely found it tough to create today, and Everton did well even with 10 men until they ran out of legs and motivation.

Our forward players can do stuff (ok, not Downing today) but our midfield isn't able to grab the game with forward momentum so it always looks like we're not controlling the game. It feels weird because our midfield has been our strength for so long.

Why were you taking care of Carlos Tevez?

so true.  the only two dead ball scenario's that i remember being subpar were a ballooned corner and a wasted free kick, both from adam, otherwise it was rock solid, especially on defense, and considering how shaky this area has been in recent history id say thats a fairly substantial development...

its been said below, but if a substandard #7 still comes up with a red carded opposition player, a pk and a goal, he'll never have to improve, will he?!

sure everton had a bit of life to them and they didnt make it easy, but as u say, its a friggin derby, its never gonna be smooth sailing.  i thot our possession was consistent and measured, if not dynamic, and even after bellamy and gerrard's inclusion, we never really had to get out of 3rd gear...

It's often the case when you pick up the defensive game, it restrains the rest of the performance.

I don't remember us making the kind of tackles that Everton were doing, they were breaking up play well, but it was costing them cards which suggested there was going to be a second yellow at some point during the afternoon.

Here's to Gerrard giving us some mobility in midfield again.  ManUre are a big ask for us right now.

An away derby, at that. The red card is not really due to Suarez's genius but to Atkinson's cluelessness. (Obviously) So, don't really give him the credit for that. Full credit for the pen and full credit (& assist to Distin) for his goal. He did seem a bit off today.

well, he can only take advantage of the chances given to him, so...seemed pretty on it to me... sure he wasn't his vibrant best, but jesus guys, wats he got to do to make it seem like he was 'involved' nehow...

atkinson was right there, so can only assume he saw the player sliding in with both feet effectively off the ground and a set of studs showing.

Got the ball fine, but at least 1 in 5 refs is going to say it's reckless, even though he doesn't eventually follow through.

Truth is Everton tackles were pretty atrocious.  Moyes put too much into that approach when Everton can play footy just fine.  I blame him - Hibbert should have gone for the tackle on Adam.

Kuyt's pen miss, a weak shot - a product of not playing more?  He should be brought on more even when he's not starting.  Heat probably didn't help as everyone was a little below full energy. ManUre were hopeless this afternoon aswell.

We still have the issue of not controlling games and pressing - allowing teams that are an organised unit to come at us, which must be about midfield.  When I think of the game against ManUre last year our midfield were excellent driving forwards from one or other pressure point.

That's what KK/SC have to sort out.

As someone once said, "the refs know the rules, they just don't know the game". It's a derby! The game is 23 minutes old. It's Rodwells first supposedly bad challenge. You give the benefit of the doubt and flash the yellow, not the red. Atkinson will be hearing about this one for a long, long time! He has a history of soft and frequent yellows. The 25th replay shown on TV doesn't look any more dangerous than the first 5 shown during the game. Poor Mr. Atkinson. It's a difficult job in real time, I do understand that.

I'm hoping we get Stevie for Charlie and Dirki for himself to sort out midfield. We'll see. 2 weeks till next game. I expect Noel to be studying his Opta chalkboards today and tomorrow, and to bring the hammer down around Tuesday or Wednesday.

But, I am going to enjoy the points for a few days anyway.

Enrique!!! Stackin' up the points in my fantasy team! Rock on, Rock hard. 

oh and Phil Jagielka is one petty bitch.

Good result, Can't wait for Gerrard to partner Adam for coming games to create more spark and creativity in the middle area. Sick to see Lucas playing every games, that's why Liverpool were just luck to win. Lucas is just an averaged player with weak body contact, cannot head, not creative to get the ball moving forward...

Lucas reads the ball in the air as well as anyway and we wins a lot of headers as a result.  You need to try harder if you want a strong reaction to your comments.  Focus on his lack of pace or general confidence in front of goal if you want to get into an actual argument.  Go support Portsmouth or whatever club you can't bare to watch anymore and leave the Lucas hating to the Brazilians.

Is Lucas like your ex or half brother you said would never make it, and now he's in England wrecking midfields left and right while empowering his own to no extent? He goes home chuckling to his beautiful wife how many passes and tackles he made today, flawless. Takes a nice shower, gets some food and enjoys a relaxing day in his spa located in his bedroom and watches movies.

Please lay off Lucas dude, I used to post here a lot two seasons ago and then totally gave up on following the offside when our boy Roy was hired. I still followed the reds, but not with the same passion as under Benitez. That said, I thought Lucas was garbage and had no idea what Benitez saw in him, he was no Xabi, he was no Aimar, he was no Baraja, and to top that off he is Brazilian I said to myself and others disappointingly :( But this past season and now there can be no doubts that this player has elevated his game to a great status. He is the new "Monster Masch" and he can pass to boot.  His shooting still needs work, as evidenced today, but his passing and tackles are first rate. I don't know what KK is going to do with Adam, but dropping Lucas is not the right option. Adam lost Felliani today, how the hell do you lose that big Afroed M'fer and consider yourself a midfielder?

I love Lucas. I'm being mean to SuePaulKeegan...

SuePaulKeegan??? Oh good, now I'm having visions of a 6 foot transvestite with a curly perm, tight shorts and a complete inability to score for England. The again, the scoring for England......

Oh I see where you thought I was being disrespectful. No Lucas is great and would be devastated if he was out. I'm saying Lucas is successful and has an enjoyable life where those who hate on him know nothing of his stature

Sorry mate, what you said was spot on. My reply should have gone to Keegan.  Apologies :)