Against Manchester United

By: Noel | May 27th, 2011
   
manchester united lose cl final barca
“Carlo [Ancelotti] gave me a magnificent bottle of wine. But I immediately told him there is no point in giving such a wonderful gift if he then fails in the final. In fact, I told him I would only drink his wine once I see him lifting the Champions Cup.”

Alex Ferguson, ahead of 2007’s Champions League final

Those who follow Liverpool are hardly a monolithic block. How could they be, with the global nature of modern football fandom? For better or worse, in a world where it’s at times easier to watch the match live if you live in Singapore or Sydney than it is if you live anywhere in England, one can hardly expect that all who spend a foolish amount of time obsessing over a football club will have passed some rigorous standardised test to judge their fitness. That’s even assuming that in the days when one could only realistically follow a club not only in their own city but, more often than not, from their own community, that everybody wearing certain colours would think exactly, dogmatically, the same way. And that, of course, would be a foolish assumption.

There may be a tendency amongst followers of a club to share certain beliefs, perhaps in Liverpool’s case beliefs befitting a club coming from a city that has never elected a Conservative member of parliament, that has faced down a history as the butt of jokes for their smug southern neighbours, and that has a strong connection to the blue collar dock workers whose industry carried the city—not to mention a corresponding collective loathing of Margaret Thatcher. There may be a tendency, but even still it would only be a tendency.

Globally, one of the most prominent American fans of the club is, rather bizarrely, television personality and former right-wing Republican congressman Joe Scarborough, a man who would probably choke to death on the phrase “Shankly socialism” for all that it was never meant to deliver a political message. And some would quickly point out that in a world where most of the club’s starting eleven makes more in a week than many of the club’s followers do in a year while the club signs on to lead the marketing campaign for Honda Motorcycles in Thailand, talk of them somehow representing those working class, left-leaning roots becomes difficult at best.

Some of those who follow Liverpool may even profess some level of affection for other clubs, clubs such as Real Madrid whose histories and core support generally speak to a very different world-view. Which, in a roundabout way, brings us to tomorrow’s Champions League final and one of the few things that is non-negotiable if one wants to consider themselves any kind of fan, follower, or supporter of Liverpool: Manchester United. It also brings us around to Martin Samuel, one of the most committed and bitter Little Englanders in the press. While Henry Winter, one of the key media architects of the installation of Roy Hodgson at Liverpool last summer, was busy turning up bile by glowingly comparing Alex Ferguson to Sir Bob Paisley, fellow founding member of the Everything wrong with football coverage in the English media club Samuel was having a go at Liverpool fans in the Daily Mail for not throwing their support behind United.

liverpool barcelona final support

“This isn’t progress,” he called out with the crux of his argument, “and don’t let anyone kid you that the new tribalism is what football has always been about. It never used to be that way. It is only the new fans, or the middle-class warriors, who know nothing else.”

Back in the day, he suggests, fans of an English club would have done the proper thing and gotten behind another English club. He even points to Ferguson himself, a Rangers player who cheered when Celtic became the first British club to win the European Cup1, as the virtuous pinnacle the modern fan has fallen short of:

“I was in Hong Kong with the Scotland team when Celtic won but I know that, from my part of Glasgow, everyone was behind them, even the Rangers fans,” [Ferguson] said. “Maybe there was the odd one who was against, but you are always going to get that. Basically, we all thought it was an amazing achievement for Jock Stein to build that team of players, all from within 20 miles of the Glasgow area.”

Nearly half a century on, it is a different story. Last week Ferguson was bemoaning the fact that many English football supporters will be cheering for Barcelona on Saturday.

“It’s a different story these days,” he said. “We live in a country of tribalism.”

And you can almost feel Samuel nodding along sympathetically to it all, such is his distress at the situation—and such is his almost slavishly worshipping approach to everything that is Alex Ferguson, Defender of the Faith.

Of course, if one looks back a couple of years, it becomes almost laughably obvious just what a load of self-congratulatory, conveniently blinkered swill it is being dished out by both Samuel and Ferguson:

Sir Alex Ferguson has taunted Liverpool ahead of their Champions League final against Milan, claiming there is “no way” they can win, and promising to toast their failure with a bottle of wine he was given by coach Carlo Ancelotti…

“I told Carlo at the end of our semi-final that there is no way he can now not win this competition,” said Ferguson. “Carlo gave me a magnificent bottle of wine. But I immediately told him there is no point in giving such a wonderful gift if he then fails in the final. In fact, I told him I would only drink his wine once I see him lifting the Champions Cup.”

When Ferguson now laments the lack of support from rival fans when his club goes up against continental competition, it is a matter of convenience for a man who for all his faults at least always knows exactly where his loyalties lie and makes no excuses for it. Certainly he knew where his loyalties lay when he openly cheered against Liverpool in 2007. For Samuel and his ilk, on the other hand, it’s a rather pathetic cherry picking of so-called facts as he cries out for the days when the sun never set on the British Empire and the occasional Scot, Welsh, or Irishman was about as foreign as it got in English football. Either way, though, there’s absolutely no excuse for a Liverpool fan to look towards Saturday hoping for anything but a ritualised slaughter of Manchester United on the Wembley turf. No matter what Martin Samuel might say, and no matter what English television coverage might blare incessantly in the hours leading up to the match, hoping for United’s inglorious demise is the only reasonable course of action.

There may be reasons for some not to actively hope for Barcelona’s victory, from other sympathies to the at times insufferable smugness of some of the bandwagon fans who have hitched themselves to the Catalan tiki-taka machine in recent years. There may be reasons to shut off the television, to head out for a beer or to see a movie and to generally pretend the whole thing just doesn’t exist. But there’s no excuse for hoping in any way, shape, or form for United to succeed. You never cheer for your rival, and those who suggest otherwise are simply clueless or disingenuous.

1 And never mind that Samuel’s nationalistic talk of all England all the time temporarily morphs into the larger construct that is Britain in order to include Scottish side Celtic when it suits his argument.

* Note: I originally referred to the 2005 CL final instead of the 2007 edition, which as Anurag kindly pointed out in the comments was kind of not right.


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  • Baldrick

    Wish I could sneak into Old Trafford and unfurl a '19 times' banner in reference to the number of times Manure touched the ball last night!!

  • Mike

    Good game. If Man U was in La Liga they would place a really strong third.

  • Josef

    Great insight, and oh so very true.  One of my mates - a Manc - scoffed at me today for wearing a Barca scarf, and asked me why I would wear the colours of a different club when I'm supposedly a diehard Liverpool supporter.  Know what I replied to him?  "Exactly."

    On a different note, Masch's comments after the match certainly don't hurt in terms of getting back in our good graces (if he ever really left them).  A certain backstabbing Spaniard learn a thing or two from the Argentine's PR skills.

    http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news...

  • Red2death

    Interesting that David Villa dedicated his goal in part to Pepe Reina's daughters.  Wasn't aware of that connection... inappropriate as it may sound.

  • Prad

    many times when spain won matches at the world cup last year, villa would run to hug reina at the bench while the rest of the team celebrated. no idea how the friendship came to be.

  • Red2death

    And Masch dedicated the win to Liverpool supporters.  Nice to know LFC is so much a part of this European final - in absentia.

  • Russ Moores

    you sorry bunch of loser's

  • Ed

    But in this insult, aren't we actually a happy bunch of losers?

  • Tony

    When it went to 3-1 I wondered if the mancs could pull off a Istanbul. haha no only Liverpool can do that!

  • Khaine

    =D

  • Abc_123

    Man U fans are like insecure little brothers, the fact that they think liverpool fans truly are scared that they beat us to 19 is a little funny, at the end of the day, they just want attention...I guess being the best for 40+ years gets to opposing fan bases

  • The most ironic thing of all is that you will always find more Manchester United fans around Liverpool forums than in their own. I wonder why that is.

  • Anxiouswarrior

    i can remember the 80s when liverpool ruled england and europe and as a united fan it hurt badly because we were not competetive ,but now the tables have turned and you feel exactly how we did  all those years ago,but please dont become all pompous and say that united are not worthy of their glory and that rubbish, have a good day lads all the best 19

  • Ed

    I'm all pompous and think that United are not worthy of their glory and that rubbish.

  • Maybe you should take all your brilliant wit to your own forum, where someone cares.

  • Maybee

    First of all, like you say in the beginning, there is not standard, monolithic definition of what makes a Liverpool fan, and I don't think it is right or fair to judge another's relationship with the club, or to say if you don't hate another club to the appropriate level, then you can't love Liverpool.  Nonsense.

    I say this because I am one of those Liverpool/Real Madrid fans - tomorrow's match is pretty much my definition of nightmare.  If something could happen where UEFA could just call the whole thing off and not award anyone a trophy this year, that would be great, but I don't see that happening.

    I hate both clubs, and I'll be gutted either way it goes.  That being said after much thought, I think I would prefer United to win.  It will still be unbearable to see them lift that trophy, but for me, personally, it would be even harder to see Barcelona do it.  

    No one likes United.  And they know that, accept it, and embrace it.  Unlike Barcelona who are convinced they are God's gift to the footballing world, and that everyone does and should love them.  Barca believe that they - and ONLY they - play "real football", and that everyone should just bow down before them.  The smugness is absolutely insufferable.  United can be (and usually are) obnoxious and arrogant, but even they are no match for Barcelona in that department.  So while I loath both clubs, my blinding, blood-boiling hatred of FC Barcelona edges out Manchester United.  I would NOT say I'm "cheering" for them.  Only that I'll be slightly less upset if they win.  And I don't think that has any reflection on my love of Liverpool.  And I don't think it makes me clueless or disingenuous. 

  • Xantheina

    I am also one of those Liverpool/Real Madrid fans, and as much as I hate United, seeing Busquets and Barcelona raise the CL trophy, would be unbearable after the whole racist scandal (yes, I believe he actually did say it) and how the club handled it. Not to mention their "higher than thou" attitude.

    Honestly, I hope the penalties just go on for forever. Or maybe everybody will get red cards for diving... I wish.

  • Andrew

    Lol Loserpool showing their true colours.Liverpool=Classless club
    I remember hwen you guys beat ac milan in 05 we united fans appreciated.So don't talk something nonsense.It was your pathetic club that started the banter thing by saying come back when you have won 18 and thats why Sir alex hates your scum club.
    Anyways I am happy atleast we are in the final and also happy that your club isn't even in the competition.HEHEHE
    We are underdogs tonight and people in england wants us to lose but we will win and then your face wiil be worth watching.
    MANCHESTER UNITED=PAST,PRESENT AND FUTURE
    LIVERPOOL=PAST,PAST AND PAST

  • Ed

    I suppose it was only a matter of time. Fun while it lasted, everyone.

  • cheekyfellow

    *Grabs belongings and leaves

  • Andrew

    Sorry to dissapoint you ED but our success will last forever.You  guys said manchester united will be finshed when beckham went but we still won tittles then
    you guys said manchester united will be finished when ruud left but we still won
    you guys said manchester united willl be finished when ronaldo left but we still are winning
    You guys keep on having your false belief about united but we will always be successful.
    And yeah its only matter of time that your 5 trophy will be overtaken by us.So you enjoy time being  with your 5 european cups.

  • scott

    you guys are also 500 million in debt. English record!

  • You type like Fez from That 70's Show speaks. Unreal. I say, good day.

  • Ed

    Oh none of this is really disappointing, it's the caps lock abuse that really had me shook. That, and I can't envision any scenario in which my face is worth watching. Dreadful for all involved.

    But since you're trying, you're the pathetic one, and just you wait and see and pffffffft and all that stuff too. Nevermind, that's exhausting.

  • Mike

    During the 4 Real/Barca matches, I supported Real because of Xabi and the two members of my beloved German national squad. Tomorrow though I hope the Catalans sodomize Man U. If that makes any sense whatsoever.

  • KC

    Mind BLOWN! I was thinking of this very thing early this week. I remember reading something that was like if you support an English team, you definitely cannot go for the Spanish team in the Champion's League Final. And vice versa because in this situation is like the Premier League vs the Primera Liga. But then when you think about it a bit more, there is no way in hell Real Madrid fans would support Barcelona in the Final right? I can't imagine any RM fans (especially after seeing all the commotion from the El Classicos) supporting a team they hate so much. 

    Therefore it would be the same for Liverpool fans. Who cares if they're English. Its so hypocritical to call them Manure and Scum but then support them when they're versing a Spanish (or other team) in the finals. Screw patriotism. This is club football not the World Cup. So when the Final starts at 4:45am in Australia, I'll only be yelling out GO BARCELONA! (Also cause I quite like Barcelona)

  • Mr Clueles

    We are not English, we are Scouse

  • Ryan

    No Real Madrid fan would support Barcelona tomorrow. Liverpool shouldn't support Man U. Visca Barca, or whatever they say!  

  • RedCarolinaRed

    American Socialist from the South (yikes! call the feds!) and hardcore LFC fanatic.
    Dont worry about Scars, he doesnt know what he thinks.
    My only wish for this weekend is to see ManU heartbroken and desponent. Crying, while perhaps asking too much, would be the icing on the cake.  I hope to see Man U's dreams trod beneath the lighting quick boots on Messis feet.

  • FalloniusMaximus

    I am an American
    I am a liberal (borderline socialist)
    I am an LFC supporter
    I want Barca to win tomorrow
    And if I ever have the chance, I will smash Ferguson right in his blood vessel bursted face with a tire iron and feel no remorse.

  • poorscouserbobby

    I am an American
    I am a Conservative
    I am a LFC supporter
    I wanted Barca to win yesterday.
    See we CAN get along.

  • matt

    since united don't really have a presence on this site...pretty sure i'm the only consistent non-spam commenter over there (shameful)...i thought i'd stop by w/ a hearty fuck you too, pals.

    19.

  • Yann

    Know this you mo fo, we held top spot on 18 titles for over a decade. You'll hang on to 19 for a year, maybe two, then we the Reds will be watching you recede in our rear vision mirror. We'll never walk alone.

  • KC

    Isn't Liverpool still the best English team in Europe? 

  • matt

    weren't they the best english team in england?

    remember being cocky about that?

    off. yr. fucking. perch.

  • KC

    Yea I'll get off my effing perch when it gets to that point.

  • Dd

    It took Man Utd 26 years to win their 9th English title under SAF in 1993 and from then onward all titles were won under SAF. So Man Utd fans should just pray for a long live SAF.   

  • Ed

    Much obliged.

  • Red2death

    Kinda hoping the first half is like Istanbul.  Barca dominate and go 3-0 up.

    And all the talk at half-time is of a rousing Utd comeback.  When the second half starts, they pull one back and the OT faithful start dreaming.  But then Barca put in 2 more for 5-1 and it's game over.  At the final whistle, Utd plods off to taunts of "you're not Liverpool".

  • uhh Great Article but ... he said that in 2007 ... So you can look to correct that.

  • Ed

    Comeuppance for both Martin Samuel and Alex Ferguson equals one of my favorites you've done. Excellent stuff.

  • Nick

    Loved the way you showed the hypocrisy of Ferguson. I actually bought tickets to see United v Barcelona in Washington DC this summer just for an opportunity to see world class football in America, AND have an opportunity to root against United. I cannot imagine any circumstance to ever root for United, and in fact, my disgust for them and their fans was a reason I became a Liverpool fan myself.

  • Josef

    I know what you mean about becoming a Liverpool fan out of sheer disgust for United fans.  I would say that I became a Liverpool fan under different circumstances, but I wasn't what you'd call a diehard then.  However, the sheer douchebagginess of Man Ure supporters was very polarizing, so much so that that tipped the scales for me, and I've been worshipping the Anfield outfit ever since.

  • Herpes007

    i guess u've picked the right team to support then eh..

  • Yann

    Editorial journalism of the highest order Noel. Well done. I've followed Barcelona almost as long as I have the Reds and I hope they the Mancs alive. In my code, you show no mercy to rivals. As they say, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

  • Excellent read. I have been asking myself this question ever since Manchester United and Barcelona made it to the final. Which team should I not root for? In truth, it should be a no brainer since Man Utd are involved but on the other hand I can do with a little less of footballing lectures from teenagers who think football was invented in Catalonia. In the end, Dalglish, summed up the way every Liverpool fan should feel about this game when he said "We can sit back and relax and watch it. It doesn't matter to us."
    Why should it really matter? Liverpool Football Club and its supporters are always targeted by rival fans, or should I say people who consider themselves to be rivals. For all the abuse, Liverpool fans are still "obliged" to support other English teams against continental opposition simply because its the more "patriotic" choice. As if Manchester were going to war against Barcelona, defending the nation's pride along the way.
    There's no better way than using some charming cinematics to summon Ferguson's (and some other haters') reaction to our historic triumph back in '05: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

  • Guest

    I don't particularly like Barcelona.  That being said, this final is infinitely better than the Hitler-Stalin argument that was the 2008 final.  Watching Terry fall on his ass was fun and all, but then to see Ronaldo, Rooney et al. rejoice made for a dark day nonetheless.  

    I still miss Riise, own goal and all.  In case anyone was wondering.

  • This just stands to reaffirm my absolute disgust with Ferguson and the way he has carried himself about since the very beginning of his management career. The guy is a prime example of someone I would call "effective" as opposed to actually "good" at what he does. By effective, I mean, he's been around long enough to know how to weasel his way out of some sticky situations and he seems to have enough sway in the dressing room to absolutely give his teams no other option than winning, whether that be by all-to-frequent help of the referee's or his players' sheer determination to win the game (even if the deadlock finally breaks during the 5th minute of 3 minutes of extra time). 

    I for one, will, be cheering for Barcelona tomorrow. They are, admittedly, my second favorite side and despite all the swirling controversy of this year, I think Barcelona still plays the best football on the planet. If I ever want to turn on the old boob-tube and just relax as my team masterfully destroys the opposition without looking to exert "too" much effort, but while still doing enough to keep me pleasantly entertained, I, of course, watch a Barcelona match.

    As far as I can discern from all the prematch banter, this should be a quite interesting matchup between the two squads, at least for the first half or so. I suspect once ManUre runs out of the legs necessary to press Barcelona, quatro-a-quatro, in the Blaugrana grass, Barcelona's midfield should have any midfield combination ManUre is capabile of fielding absolutely spellbound; queue Messi-magic. End of.

    ¡Visca el Barça!

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